Webley Premier Question.

[Abasmajor]

A friend of mine has just purchased a Mk1 Webley Premier without the usual Series letter stamped on the left hand side of the frame. The word OIL is present on the top of the cylinder in the usual place which I believe was removed with the introduction of the B Series.
Were some very early Premiers made without the A Series marking or could this example have somehow inadvertently missed out on this Series annotation ?





Brian

[laverdabru]

This rings a bell, think years ago I was asking about my early Premier, & someone said that the 'OIL' marking was on some early B series models, contrary to the Gordon Bruce book.
Guess Webley had some bodies to use up?
Just checked, it was 9/11/20. Webley Wombler said he had 3 B models up to 1965 with the 'OIL' marking.

[Abasmajor]

This rings a bell, think years ago I was asking about my early Premier, & someone said that the 'OIL' marking was on some early B series models, contrary to the Gordon Bruce book.
Guess Webley had some bodies to use up?
Just checked, it was 9/11/20. Webley Wombler said he had 3 B models up to 1965 with the 'OIL' marking.

Thanks for the response. I can understand there being some slight anomalies during transition through the Series but this example appears to have no Series stamping at all with only the OIL stamping suggesting it was an A Series or as you say, possibly a transitional A to B Series. It also makes you wonder why Webley felt the need to instigate Series stampings for the Premier in the first place as this was not used on the Senior unless it was thought to be beneficial based on experience with making the Senior.

Brian

[laverdabru]

According to the Bruce book, the series stamps were introduced after December 1964 to denote changes to the assembly & to make ordering of spares easier.
At a guess, either your friend has an early one, or someone was having a bad day at the factory & it didn't get stamped.
Are there any markings under the l/hand stock plate, out of interest?

[Abasmajor]

According to the Bruce book, the series stamps were introduced after December 1964 to denote changes to the assembly & to make ordering of spares easier.
At a guess, either your friend has an early one, or someone was having a bad day at the factory & it didn't get stamped.
Are there any markings under the l/hand stock plate, out of interest?

There are no date stampings under the grip as are sometimes seen on other Webley pistols.

Brian

[archer24]

Both my B’s have the ‘Oil’ stamp and both are 1965’s.
I think A’s are .177 and B’s .22.
Although barrels could be swapped.
Only true way would be to strip it down and see if the piston washer is leather or ptfe….

[Abasmajor]

Both my B’s have the ‘Oil’ stamp and both are 1965’s.
I think A’s are .177 and B’s .22.
Although barrels could be swapped.
Only true way would be to strip it down and see if the piston washer is leather or ptfe….

Thanks for confirming that there were transitional anomalies between the Series A & Series B Premiers regarding the OIL stamping, but the thing I really want to clarify is are there any other Premiers out there with no Series stamping on the left hand side of the frame at all.

Brian

[archer24]

Sorry miss read the question.
I do have a 1964 Senior with a date stamp…..although no letter 😜

[Josie & John]

Hi Brian,

In reply to your PM, I'll post on open forum as this is an interesting topic.

The very first 4 pin Premiers (pre A) should technically not have been stamped with any code letter. I have never seen or heard of such an example and some knowledgeable Webley collectors doubt their existence, although I live in hope.

Does this pistol have the leather piston washer associated with A Series Premiers?

Without a date code or any solid provenance, it is not possible to say for sure if this is a pre A Premier but it is possible.

Hope that helps.

John

[ccdjg]

Thanks for confirming that there were transitional anomalies between the Series A & Series B Premiers regarding the OIL stamping, but the thing I really want to clarify is are there any other Premiers out there with no Series stamping on the left hand side of the frame at all.

Brian

Yes Brian, there are other examples of the (presumed) Series A Mark I Premier with no A markings. I have one, with 1386 , stamped under the left grip plate, and also on the muzzle plug.





The only letter marking is a very small "R" under trigger guard.



To muddy the waters even more, this one has no OIL marking!

As has been suggested, it is possible that the unmarked Series A pistols were very early ones, produced before the concept of a series arose from economic pressures. However, you will see that my example has five pins not the mythical four that has been suggested for the very first examples.

[Abasmajor]

My thanks to everybody who have kindly responded with information and theories regarding Mk1 Webley Premier Series frame stampings which is very much appreciated.

Brian

[archer24]

A 5 pin A?
Looks like a 1970 E to me……
2 B’s or not 2 B’s….

[ccdjg]

Yes, you are quite right, and Gordon Bruce's book says that the five pins started with the D series. What indicates that it is an unmarked E series pistol are the brown grips, which according to Bruce, were only used in the early E series. Why the pistol was never stamped as an "E" is still a bit of a puzzle.

[archer24]

The barrel catch is also a give away, only used 1969/70 I think…..
Here’s my 666, 7/0 one, love this one ��

Could of course be a upside down F ��

[Josie & John]

There are certainly quite a few uncoded examples known from the early 1970s, some of which also lack a date stamp.

My own example is numbered 808. It is uncoded and undated but otherwise identical to an E series Premier.

I wonder if Webley decided to drop the letter code after E for a while, then brought it back with the F, which on the examples I know of is stamped in a smaller font than the A to E coded pistols.

A further anomaly is the large E on the later unblued pistols that have a black baked on finish - E for Enamel?

John