A bit of history regarding the Walther/Umarex relationship... (models 88 & 99)

[capt hindsight]

( Edit -This has tuned into a bit of a review)

I purchased a CP88, then a CP99 the other day and started reading up about the firearms on which they are based. Thought I'd share what I found...

Apparently Walther produced only 7000 of the P88 firearms over a 12 year period from the early 1980's until year 2000. The P88 failed in its bid to become the US army standard issue sidearm, losing out to the Berreta 92F. The Walther was expensive too, costing just short of double that of many of its rivals. A bit of trivia; the P88 was used by Ellis De Wald who was then disarmed by Axel Foley in the movie Beverly Hills Cop 3.

Umarex started manufacturing the CP88 Co2 version in 1996, it was the companies first pellet firing co2 pistol. Sales have continued to be strong to this day. I seem to remember reading somewhere that around 250,000 have been produced, but I've struggled to find that figure again for writing this post. Whats certain is the Co2 CP88 sales vastly exceeded that of the firearm.

The CP88 is a very close copy of the firearm version, the decocking lever is present but doesnt function, naturally the safety catch does function, and the magazine release button is used on the Co2 pistol to remove the grip and access the Co2 cartridge.

In the early 90's Walther was on the verge of bankruptcy, thankfully the CEO of Umarex spotted an opportunity to save both Walther, and utilise its firearm designs for Co2 air pistols and non lethal self defence products, in 1993 Umarex purchased Walther!

What I found interesting is that this purchase of Walther by Umarex means the CP88 and CP99 are indeed Walther pistols, they are not just licensed copies, they are technically Walther products albeit made in a different factory by the parent company Umarex.

The P99 firearm was the first Walther firearm pistol commissioned under Umarex ownership. It was far more commercially successful than the P88, as production costs were reduced by utilising polymer construction rather than a full metal design as per the P88. Production of the P99 lasted around 25 years, the firearm version finding favour with a number of police forces including Germany, Finland, Ireland, Netherlands, Poland and Portugal, amongst others. Umarex also managed to get the P99 written into 'Tomorrow Never Dies' as James Bonds pistol used by Pierce Brosnan - "Ah the new Walther, I asked Q to get me one of these", i'm sure that helped sales.

The P99 offered some innovative features, one being the replaceable backstrap on the pistol grip which is now seen on a variety of pistols including Glocks, this allowing the user to adjust the size and feel of the grip to suit their preference. True to form the CP99 comes with an additional backstrap so the gun can be altered as per the firearm version. The CP99 is the first pistol i've owned with an internal striker rather than the traditional cocking hammer. Apparently the firearm version offers single action which is activated by pulling the slider back, however the trigger remains in its forward positon this activating 'Anti-stress mode' something which nodds towards law enforcement use. It means the length of pull remains at the full 14mm but the trigger pull weight is approximately halved. When fired the gun resets into the single action position, trigger weight remains the halved, but length of pull is reduced to 8mm. The gun can be decocked by pressing the decocking button on the top of the rear of the slide.

The CP99 Co2 version emulates this design, Ive read some reviews which critise the trigger weight and pull, but I believe Umarex have tried to replicate the trigger action as closely as possible. Other than the absence of 'Anti stress mode' the Co2 versions trigger operates in a similar way, the slide can be pulled back to put it into single action and true to form the length of trigger pull is reduced (like most semi automatic C02 pistols). However when slowly pulling the trigger the full length from double action mode, there is a click as the gun cocks the striker and releasing trigger pressure leaves it in single action, albeit with the shortened length pull. I suspect this is by design rather that just the way the gun functions and best of all, the decocking button on the top of the slide actually works. So the Co2 version can be decocked by pressing this button and then pulling the trigger whilst it is held down. Personally I think thats amazing attention to detail from Umarex. In reality a Co2 gun can easily be discharged to be made safe, but Umarex have added this working feature as per the firearm. The magazine release on the Co2 version is also located as per the firearm, the section of the trigger guard located directly behind the trigger is hinged, and pushing it down release the magazine - but watch out as it drops rapidly towards the floor.

The CP99 Co2 version was introduced in 2006 and is specifically marketed by Umarex as a model that remains faithful to the original firearms design. Again Umarex have used this clever business model, capitalising on their Walther firearm design by selling mass produced quality Co2 versions that look, feel and handle like the firearm version.

I've read a fair number of reviews online, particularly in the USA, that compare Walther Co2 pistols with other brands and try to explain the premium price being down to 'licensing' fees to use the Walther name. That assumption is really interesting, but is probably incorrect as ultimately a Umarex/Walther branded Co2 pistol is from the same stable albeit manufactured at the parent company Umarex factory facilities. Personally I think the price premium comes from the attention to detail by incorporting features as per the original firearm.

I'm really impressed with both the CP88 & CP99, they are very different handling guns and excellent examples of evolution of handgun design, they both have adjustable sights (left/right only).

[Powderfinger]

A pity that Umarex do not do a CO2 version of the Walther P5. That model of Walther was used by Roger Moore in Octopussy.

[costalotpanther]

I love my 88.
In fact, I love all my Umarex's
A great manufacturer.

[capt hindsight]

A pity that Umarex do not do a CO2 version of the Walther P5. That model of Walther was used by Roger Moore in Octopussy.

Indeed, I think a pellet firing version of the PPK would sell well too. I've never shot a firearm version of either the P88 or P99 but did have opportunity to shoot a PPK as a child. Prior to the handgun ban I used to holiday with school friends in Wales, a group of us would go with one of my closest friends stepdad. He let us shoot a variety of pistols one being a PPK. We were in total awe of the PPK due to the bond movies which were really popular at the time, even though many of his other guns were superior. There was a Browning Hi-power and Colt Python amongst others, if I remember right we got to shoot the latter in .38, but not .357 magnum due to the recoil. We thought all this was absolutely brilliant, they are happy memories!

It will be interesting to see if Umarex introduce a Co2 pellet version of their latest firearm the PDP

[Josie & John]

A very good read.

I believe the CP88 was introduced in 1997. From memory, the first reference I can recall is a review in U.S. Airgun magazine just a little while before CO2 came off ticket in the U.K. on 1st July 1997.

I bought a CP88 from JSR, our forum sponsor within days of them coming off ticket as back then, RFDs could post airguns to you directly.

John

[rapidresponse1]

a very interesting read

[harvey_s]

I think this bit is a bit fanciful...

What I found interesting is that this purchase of Walther by Umarex means the CP88 and CP99 are indeed Walther pistols, they are not just licensed copies, they are technically Walther products albeit made in a different factory by the parent company Umarex.

Under that way of thinking it would make the Turkish Webleys the same as the original ones - which everyone knows they aren't.

[ashf9999]

I think this bit is a bit fanciful...

What I found interesting is that this purchase of Walther by Umarex means the CP88 and CP99 are indeed Walther pistols, they are not just licensed copies, they are technically Walther products albeit made in a different factory by the parent company Umarex.

Under that way of thinking it would make the Turkish Webleys the same as the original ones - which everyone knows they aren't.

Exactly. Like saying Webley made Antler luggage because they were both owned by Harris & Sheldon at the same time…

[capt hindsight]

I think this bit is a bit fanciful...

What I found interesting is that this purchase of Walther by Umarex means the CP88 and CP99 are indeed Walther pistols, they are not just licensed copies, they are technically Walther products albeit made in a different factory by the parent company Umarex.

Under that way of thinking it would make the Turkish Webleys the same as the original ones - which everyone knows they aren't.

But they are still Webleys are they not? I'm not saying the quality is the same, just the technicality of the ownership.

If you buy a Umarex Smith & Wesson or Colt, it's a licensed copy, if you buy a Umarex Walther, it's not a licenced copy as they own the company.

The fascinating part of it for me is how an airgun company bought out one of the most famous handgun manufacturers and saved them from bankruptcy.

[harvey_s]

But they are still Webleys are they not? I'm not saying the quality is the same, just the technicality of the ownership.

If you buy a Umarex Smith & Wesson or Colt, it's a licensed copy, if you buy a Umarex Walther, it's not a licenced copy as they own the company.

The fascinating part of it for me is how an airgun company bought out one of the most famous handgun manufacturers and saved them from bankruptcy.

That's just it... they have Webley on them - but they aren't really Webleys and everyone knows it!
The same is true here...

[capt hindsight]

That's just it... they have Webley on them - but they aren't really Webleys and everyone knows it!
The same is true here...

I suppose thats just modern times though, I can't see Walther manufacturing an air pistol from scratch and certainly not with Umarex as a parent company, why would they?

Most products are no longer what they seem, most things 'made in the UK' are assembled using parts from a variety of countries, thats just the way the world is now.


Playing devils advocate a Birmingham BSA is made up of a variety of parts from elsewhere, so is it still a BSA or would you regard it as a Gamo?

I dont think there's a right or wrong answer, it comes down to how an individual feels about the product and its not worth over thinking imo.


The car industry is a good example, manufacturers use components from all over the world, sharing floorpans, engines and body parts, then quite a few cars are near identical versions of shared manufacturer - Is it a Toyota Aygo, Citreon C1 or Peugot 107? Who knows.

[harvey_s]

Ironically I had a Gamo Coyote for a while.
And although it came in a Gamo box and had Gamo on the side...
It also had 'Made in the U.K.' on it.
It used BSA magazines.
It had a BSA hammer forged barrel and it was made in the BSA factory.
The only Gamo part on it was the trigger assembly.
All sold for a fraction of the price of a BSA branded gun.

[Segata]

I'd be intrested to know how it works for HK as they sell stuff other than Guns thats HK branded like they do with Walther, I know the Airsoft side is just license as its made by VFC and then branded Umarex/HK but Airguns are a bit different and don't seem to be made by someone else bar the odd shared component.

I've got another one for you, I have a US Made Daisy 25 Centenary edtion, the original Daisy tooling had been packed off to China by this point so while made in the right place its technically built by someone else so is it truley a Daisy or a licensed product?

[capt hindsight]

I'd be intrested to know how it works for HK as they sell stuff other than Guns thats HK branded like they do with Walther, I know the Airsoft side is just license as its made by VFC and then branded Umarex/HK but Airguns are a bit different and don't seem to be made by someone else bar the odd shared component.

I've got another one for you, I have a US Made Daisy 25 Centenary edtion, the original Daisy tooling had been packed off to China by this point so while made in the right place its technically built by someone else so is it truley a Daisy or a licensed product?

I'd guess its a Daisy as the patents, branding and ownership of the manufacturing process will be still owned by them. Think we're really just looking at technicalities though. With Umarex owning Walther they are quite within their right to sell Umarex manufactured Walthers as the real thing. They could market them as licenced copies but generally with licenced guns a payment would be made to the original manufacturer, so why make an internal licensing payment? Maybe they do, perhaps I'm wrong and Umarex pay a licensing fee into the Walther part of the company to bolster the accounts, but they wont be obliged.

Probably with something like a Umarex 'Glock' there will have been a degree of collaboration between Umarex and Glock. The last thing a premium brand like Glock would want from a 'licensed copy' that carries their branding is a poor reproduction that could reflect badly on their brand. Glock may have received payment for providing any design specifications to assist Umarex manufacturer a realistic copy and probably got some say prior to the product going to market. When in production they will receive a cut, traditionally that comes in the form of a set payment per unit.

At first it struck me as odd that these 'big' firearm manufacturers would choose to allow co2 replicas of their products to be sold, but when I clocked the sales figures of the Walther P88 compared to the Umarex/Walther CP88 it made me realise just how lucrative the co2 market is, sales of co2 replicas dwarf the firearms sales.

I'd love a look around both firearm and co2 pistol manufacturing facilities to see the differences!


Webley - I get Webley is not what Webley once was and understand it will leave a sour taste for aficionados of the original brand. However I'd rather see manufacturing take place in Turkey than not at all as it leaves hope for the future. BSA have just proven this with their latest lightning flying off the shelves no doubt partly because its British made, its great to see.

Hopefully Webley will follow suit at some point, and there is hope; last year I bought a high quality Webley moderator, its firearm rated (rimfire) and was half the price of the Weihrauch BLK - best of all its made in the UK!

[evert]

Ironically I had a Gamo Coyote for a while.
And although it came in a Gamo box and had Gamo on the side...
It also had 'Made in the U.K.' on it.
It used BSA magazines.
It had a BSA hammer forged barrel and it was made in the BSA factory.
The only Gamo part on it was the trigger assembly.
All sold for a fraction of the price of a BSA branded gun.

Turning his around- or us that are still allowed to own cartridge firing weapons, it is clear that Walther is not Walther anymore under Umarex ownership.
Walthers used to be high quality machined steel guns, and both post and prewar PPs and PPKs were really nice guns.
The recent PPKs are made more like the co2 versions, with cheaply cast parts and little use of traditional materials.
I understand that modern throwaway economy dictates this, but Walther is not Walther anymore.