20 Calibre saves a lot of hassle discuss

[angrybear]

Come on "cave man", I never said I was a perfect shot, I do hold my own though. I pretty much hunt on my own now, unless I go out with the old man, who is 78 and still believes in .177. Mainly because I seen too many shooters "wound" or "eventually die" after they have run or flew for a while. I don't like it so its "head shots are us" club for me on all prey.
I know my abilities and my limits, I don't switch from calibre and only shoot 2x sub 12 air rifles now, which luckily both love the prem. No FAC at all. I know this kit inside out. The few .20 rifles I have used are not as accurate as mine and don't fly as flat as the prem .177, so they lose out on 2 accounts there. I put down to the calibre and not the rifles, so why bother. I used .22 for years along side .177 but past 40 yards it is a nightmare getting the range yard perfect for .22. Up to 40 yards is fine probably of all calibres if the kit can produce the accuracy required, but for me the do it all and therefore the best sub 12 calibre is .177.

I on the other hand vary the calibre to suit the situation, .20, .22, .25, FAC .25, .22lr, .17WSM, .243.
I used to shoot .177 but found it had the poorest results with far too many runners, in addition at close range the pellets go straight through, thus wasting most of their energy & risking damage to anything behind.
I have zero interest in paper punching, so stopped using it altogether.
I use a LRF so ranging isn't an issue, & 9/10 use quad sticks or bipod to steady myself.

My MFR .20 with FTT's is without doubt the most accurate sub 12 rifle I have ever had, but if I think something else will better suit on the day, I'll choose a different tool (a gun simply being a tool to do a job)
I struggle to understand why people think 1 gun can do it all, if they have the option of something better suited, so to me, .177 belongs on the target range, not in the field.

Personal opinion is one thing, but most anti .20 sentiment simply has no basis in fact, or practical experience.

[gsxrman]

I on the other hand vary the calibre to suit the situation, .20, .22, .25, FAC .25, .22lr, .17WSM, .243.
I used to shoot .177 but found it had the poorest results with far too many runners, in addition at close range the pellets go straight through, thus wasting most of their energy & risking damage to anything behind.
I have zero interest in paper punching, so stopped using it altogether.
I use a LRF so ranging isn't an issue, & 9/10 use quad sticks or bipod to steady myself.

My MFR .20 with FTT's is without doubt the most accurate sub 12 rifle I have ever had, but if I think something else will better suit on the day, I'll choose a different tool (a gun simply being a tool to do a job)
I struggle to understand why people think 1 gun can do it all, if they have the option of something better suited, so to me, .177 belongs on the target range, not in the field.

Personal opinion is one thing, but most anti .20 sentiment simply has no basis in fact, or practical experience.

Not really anti .20, I just don't see the point as they don't fly as flat, or hit as hard and generally they are the two reasons for choosing either .177 or .22.
Bet you have note pads and drawings of different trajectories and either aim points or adjustments on scope for every rig.
Carrying all that kit sounds slow, laborious and tedious.
I take my rifle, and I know every adjustment as its all I use. Like instinct or auto pilot. By the time you set yourself up, get comfy, range the quarry, adjust or settle with an aim point Id have shot half a dozen rabbits. What do you do when your quarry moves, range again and again and again, or if you have a .22 or .25 and quarry goes out to 40m+.
.177 out to 50-55 is all ya need, whether it be airgun quarry or FT/HFT, it does it all and well. Runners with a .177, ya missing a vital period, bigger pellet and more power doesn't help, you still missed a vital, = wounded animal. Maybe not for long but still suffering. Shame we aren't closer to each other, then I could show you first hand how clinical my rig is, like I have done many times before.
Tools should go .177, .22LR or .17HMR, .243.

[PCPShooter]

Not really anti .20, I just don't see the point as they don't fly as flat, or hit as hard and generally they are the two reasons for choosing either .177 or .22.
Bet you have note pads and drawings of different trajectories and either aim points or adjustments on scope for every rig.
Carrying all that kit sounds slow, laborious and tedious.
I take my rifle, and I know every adjustment as its all I use. Like instinct or auto pilot. By the time you set yourself up, get comfy, range the quarry, adjust or settle with an aim point Id have shot half a dozen rabbits. What do you do when your quarry moves, range again and again and again, or if you have a .22 or .25 and quarry goes out to 40m+.
.177 out to 50-55 is all ya need, whether it be airgun quarry or FT/HFT, it does it all and well. Runners with a .177, ya missing a vital period, bigger pellet and more power doesn't help, you still missed a vital, = wounded animal. Maybe not for long but still suffering. Shame we aren't closer to each other, then I could show you first hand how clinical my rig is, like I have done many times before.
Tools should go .177, .22LR or .17HMR, .243.

.20 -
As well as being the best all round Uk power caliber it saves so much hassle
You can set a springer at 11.4 with FTT and a pcp same with jsb and not have to worry some new silly super pellet will send velocity all over the shop.
All you need is one good accurate dome head anyway which those two always are :

Discuss -

[gsxrman]

.20 -
As well as being the best all round Uk power caliber it saves so much hassle
You can set a springer at 11.4 with FTT and a pcp same with jsb and not have to worry some new silly super pellet will send velocity all over the shop.
All you need is one good accurate dome head anyway which those two always are :

Discuss -

Errr No.

[HW777]

Not really anti .20, I just don't see the point as they don't fly as flat, or hit as hard and generally they are the two reasons for choosing either .177 or .22.
Bet you have note pads and drawings of different trajectories and either aim points or adjustments on scope for every rig.
Carrying all that kit sounds slow, laborious and tedious.
I take my rifle, and I know every adjustment as its all I use. Like instinct or auto pilot. By the time you set yourself up, get comfy, range the quarry, adjust or settle with an aim point Id have shot half a dozen rabbits. What do you do when your quarry moves, range again and again and again, or if you have a .22 or .25 and quarry goes out to 40m+.
.177 out to 50-55 is all ya need, whether it be airgun quarry or FT/HFT, it does it all and well. Runners with a .177, ya missing a vital period, bigger pellet and more power doesn't help, you still missed a vital, = wounded animal. Maybe not for long but still suffering. Shame we aren't closer to each other, then I could show you first hand how clinical my rig is, like I have done many times before.
Tools should go .177, .22LR or .17HMR, .243.

It's not coming across that way at all What an odd statement, they don't fly flat or hit hard

You seem intent on derailing this thread

Every calibre has it's own merits yet you can't see pass your own point of view which is very narrow @ only .177

[gsxrman]

It's not coming across that way at all What an odd statement, they don't fly flat or hit hard
they don't fly as flat, or hit as hard and generally they are the two reasons for choosing either .177 or .22.

You seem intent on derailing this thread
No not in the slightest, this thread, just like the "what power level to set your rifle at" is interesting. Much better than numerous what ya favourite colour threads.

Every calibre has it's own merits yet you can't see pass your own point of view which is very narrow @ only .177

I can see past .177, have used all calibres and FAC air. Like Mr Bear says it could be HFT mentality, but my opinion is also based on a lot of experience. I have also said many times HFT and FT is a hunting simulation competition. Go take your .20,.22 and .25 and see how you get on. Every plate you hit is a wounded animal!!
I could do all my shooting with any of the other calibres, but it wouldn't be as easy as with .177, and that is my main point, .177 sub 12 is the easiest to get on with and achieve good results so surely this makes it the best calibre sub 12.

[angrybear]

I can see past .177, have used all calibres and FAC air. Like Mr Bear says it could be HFT mentality, but my opinion is also based on a lot of experience. I have also said many times HFT and FT is a hunting simulation competition. Go take your .20,.22 and .25 and see how you get on. Every plate you hit is a wounded animal!!

I could do all my shooting with any of the other calibres, but it wouldn't be as easy as with .177, and that is my main point, .177 sub 12 is the easiest to get on with and achieve good results so surely this makes it the best calibre sub 12.

Except it isn't really,
because in competition you must take every shot, and take it from a pre-set location & shooting position, which just doesn't apply in the field.

Your last line for me absolutely nails it, and I've tried not to use the word throughout;

" .177 is the "easiest" to get on with "

Yes, and that's why it's the most popular, but I disagree that 'easiest or popular' bear any relevance to being "the best" across the board.

[Muskett]

I'm with gsxman on this discussion.

The .20 is a compromise. It isn't as flat shooting as a .177, nor has the wallop of the .22. It limits maximising advantages of prioritising either velocity or weight; just gets stuck in the middle somewhere.

So what is the point? Because they are fun, and just something different to try. If velocity doesn't really matter much, nor weight, then not a bad choice. Still have to sort out the ballistic drop and everything else required.
Limited pellet choice might not allow for much tweaking to get the absolutely best that can be had unless just lucky.

If hitting the mark is the priority with 12ft/lbs air rifles then most people find the flatter shooting .177 easier to do that at all normal ranges; which makes it the "best". If you can do the same with all the other calibres then there isn't a "best". Few can.

FAC then everything changes.

[HW777]

I'm with gsxman on this discussion.

The .20 is a compromise. It isn't as flat shooting as a .177, nor has the wallop of the .22. It limits maximising advantages of prioritising either velocity or weight; just gets stuck in the middle somewhere.

This all revolves around pellet design and weight, how is a .20 11.4 grain pellet a compromise compared to a 8.4 grain .177 pellet and what is the lightest well made .22

The .177 is a tad to light, .22 is too loopy to shoot at range.

So for those in the know, .20 offers velocity pellet weight and range out in the field.

Now who can we find to twist the arm of H&N ? To offer their old range of .20 pellets.

For a 10 grain .20 pellet would really level the field against those that are to narrow minded to see the potential of .20 @ 12fpe

[gsxrman]

Except it isn't really,
because in competition you must take every shot, and take it from a pre-set location & shooting position, which just doesn't apply in the field.

Your last line for me absolutely nails it, and I've tried not to use the word throughout;

" .177 is the "easiest" to get on with "

Yes, and that's why it's the most popular, but I disagree that 'easiest or popular' bear any relevance to being "the best" across the board.

Well yes there has to be some kind of rule system, but the parameters for hunting are the same with HFT especially, and most "discs" are larger than the "kill area" of the quarries brain. Targets are critter shaped most of the time and set at real life distances and angles, just like the field. Rats on ground at 15 yards, squirrel in a tree at 25 yards etc, which of them would you not take in the field.
I know it is not for everyone, but it defo makes a point if you have a go, and it definitely opened my eyes and made me a much better hunter with an air rifle.

[zephyr]

I have also said many times HFT and FT is a hunting simulation competition.

I’m not disagreeing with you - I thought that as well, as do others I have chatted with over the years. Maybe I misunderstood when HFT was born out of FT, or has history been re-written by those who weren’t there, or maybe it is just the progression of the sport? Admittedly more and more silhouettes are of geometric shapes or non-quarry creatures (birds of prey, wolves, monkeys, bulls and a whole host of different birds) or other things (Aeroplanes, hand grenade and dragons). But the feedback from official UKAHFT sources is that HFT is a target competition and not meant to simulate hunting (despite ’Hunter’ being part of the name), which is used to explain some of the rules.

This doesn’t add anything to the calibre debate, but does let me express some of my ‘grumpy old man’ views to somebody other than my long suffering wife and kids.

[gsxrman]

I’m not disagreeing with you - I thought that as well, as do others I have chatted with over the years. Maybe I misunderstood when HFT was born out of FT, or has history been re-written by those who weren’t there, or maybe it is just the progression of the sport? Admittedly more and more silhouettes are of geometric shapes or non-quarry creatures (birds of prey, wolves, monkeys, bulls and a whole host of different birds) or other things (Aeroplanes, hand grenade and dragons). But the feedback from official UKAHFT sources is that HFT is a target competition and not meant to simulate hunting (despite ’Hunter’ being part of the name), which is used to explain some of the rules.

This doesn’t add anything to the calibre debate, but does let me express some of my ‘grumpy old man’ views to somebody other than my long suffering wife and kids.

Thank you for that. Yes the sport has evolved over the years and gotten a bit politically correct. Which could be due to them trying to step away completely from hunting i.e.. Lead Ban etc.
If you look past the boll****, the fundamentals are the same as most hunting scenarios with distance and angles and no bench to rest on.

[gsxrman]

This wasn't at any time, what's the best cal thread though was it

Depends how you look at it,
".20 -
As well as being the best all round Uk power caliber it saves so much hassle
Discuss

OP makes a statement and almost demands "discuss". Which is what we are doing. Some believe he is right, some don't, there go, a discussion happens to air differing points of view.
Which is what this is.

[angrybear]

Not really anti .20, I just don't see the point as they don't fly as flat, or hit as hard and generally they are the two reasons for choosing either .177 or .22.
The point is, it's like choosing either one, but coupled with most of the benefits of the other included, not being able to understand that is typical "HFT/competition mentality"

Bet you have note pads and drawings of different trajectories and either aim points or adjustments on scope for every rig.
NO
Carrying all that kit sounds slow, laborious and tedious.
So what ? I'm not in a race

I take my rifle, and I know every adjustment as its all I use. Like instinct or auto pilot. By the time you set yourself up, get comfy, range the quarry, adjust or settle with an aim point Id have shot half a dozen rabbits. What do you do when your quarry moves, range again and again and again, or if you have a .22 or .25 and quarry goes out to 40m+.
So do I most of the time, if the quarry moves I might stalk a bit closer or I might adjust the POA,
If it moves a long way, I just don't take the shot, because it's not a competition I don't have to try & hit everything I see !

.177 out to 50-55 is all ya need, whether it be airgun quarry or FT/HFT, it does it all and well.
There's that, 'I must take the shot' HFT/competition mentality again, just because you can doesn't mean you should, 50-55yds is beyond sensible sub12 hunting range, far too much can effect the shot, stalk closer.

Runners with a .177, ya missing a vital period, bigger pellet and more power doesn't help, you still missed a vital, = wounded animal. Maybe not for long but still suffering. Shame we aren't closer to each other, then I could show you first hand how clinical my rig is, like I have done many times before.
Bigger pellet/more impact energy does help, as does a larger surface area which transfers more terminal energy to the prey,

Tools should go .177, .22LR or .17HMR, .243.

Why, when there are tools to fill the gaps ?

[gsxrman]

Why, when there are tools to fill the gaps ?

Not really anti .20, I just don't see the point as they don't fly as flat, or hit as hard and generally they are the two reasons for choosing either .177 or .22.
The point is, it's like choosing either one, but coupled with most of the benefits of the other included, not being able to understand that is typical "HFT/competition mentality"

Bet you have note pads and drawings of different trajectories and either aim points or adjustments on scope for every rig.
NO
Carrying all that kit sounds slow, laborious and tedious.
So what ? I'm not in a race

I take my rifle, and I know every adjustment as its all I use. Like instinct or auto pilot. By the time you set yourself up, get comfy, range the quarry, adjust or settle with an aim point Id have shot half a dozen rabbits. What do you do when your quarry moves, range again and again and again, or if you have a .22 or .25 and quarry goes out to 40m+.
So do I most of the time, if the quarry moves I might stalk a bit closer or I might adjust the POA,
If it moves a long way, I just don't take the shot, because it's not a competition I don't have to try & hit everything I see !

.177 out to 50-55 is all ya need, whether it be airgun quarry or FT/HFT, it does it all and well.
There's that, 'I must take the shot' HFT/competition mentality again, just because you can doesn't mean you should, 50-55yds is beyond sensible sub12 hunting range, far too much can effect the shot, stalk closer.

Runners with a .177, ya missing a vital period, bigger pellet and more power doesn't help, you still missed a vital, = wounded animal. Maybe not for long but still suffering. Shame we aren't closer to each other, then I could show you first hand how clinical my rig is, like I have done many times before.
Bigger pellet/more impact energy does help, as does a larger surface area which transfers more terminal energy to the prey,

Tools should go .177, .22LR or .17HMR, .243.

Ya know I agree with nearly everything you say there AB, at sub 12 the difference in power retention between .20 and .177 is actually very little and it is 0.5mm wider in diameter. There is no real world advantage.
If you get a placebo effect from using a larger heavier calibre then fair enough, as all calibres will do the job if you hit the mark. Its just easier with .177 to be more clinical.