Non toxic, is .22 the new .177

[angrybear]

JSB .25 Pb free 16.54gn, my Scorpion sub 12 loves them,
the problem is they're still way too hard & hardly deform at all on impact with a hard target, there's zero expansion on prey, they just punch straight through without pausing.

[bezza xl]

Interesting thought, I'm just about to buy a new fac air rifle, is .25 the way to go?

[Geezer]

Stands to reason that if ammo becomes less efficient, the more efficient calibres will become more attractive.

Unfortunately, making non-lead ammo that performs adequately in typical pellet designs and airgun barrel twists, or at all, is problematic.

[ballisticboy]

The studies I carried out comparing lead and lead free pellets of identical design suggested that, for the same group sizes, the lead free pellets needed to be made more accurately and be a better match to your barrel. When the same errors were modelled for lead and lead free, the group sizes were bigger for the lead free, suggesting the error sources needed to be reduced. The effects of winds and the longer range problems with spiral flight etc. were not considered.

[Geezer]

The effects of winds and the longer range problems with spiral flight etc. were not considered.

But the working assumption would be that those issues are likely to be worse with tin, zinc, etc, compared with lead?

Not to mention the challenge in a - hopefully long? - transition period in the U.K. in which unlicensed guns must stay below the 12/6 limit with the most efficient lead ammunition, and would therefore be carrying less energy (or shedding it more quickly over distance) with non-lead, affecting effective hunting ranges.

And, setting accuracy aside, this would be with a less deformable projectile. Personally, I think projectile deformation at, at least, subsonic velocities without complex design (eg Hydra-Shocks and other clever pistol-range JHPs) is often over-estimated as a factor across small arms, and is largely irrelevant to head shots on typical airgun quarry, because they are head shots, but others differ.

So, sub-12, and at “normal” distances, you appear to be looking at less precision, lower impact energy, and lower potential wound ballistics. And use of a larger calibre, reducing effective range, both by loopier trajectory and reduced precision.

A sensible approach would be to consider the impacts on public health, safety, animal welfare etc of less effective airguns versus more poison, trapping, shotguns, rimfire and so on.

[angrybear]

But the working assumption would be that those issues are likely to be worse with tin, zinc, etc, compared with lead?

Not to mention the challenge in a - hopefully long? - transition period in the U.K. in which unlicensed guns must stay below the 12/6 limit with the most efficient lead ammunition, and would therefore be carrying less energy (or shedding it more quickly over distance) with non-lead, affecting effective hunting ranges.

And, setting accuracy aside, this would be with a less deformable projectile. Personally, I think projectile deformation at, at least, subsonic velocities without complex design (eg Hydra-Shocks and other clever pistol-range JHPs) is often over-estimated as a factor across small arms, and is largely irrelevant to head shots on typical airgun quarry, because they are head shots, but others differ.

So, sub-12, and at “normal” distances, you appear to be looking at less precision, lower impact energy, and lower potential wound ballistics. And use of a larger calibre, reducing effective range, both by loopier trajectory and reduced precision.

A sensible approach would be to consider the impacts on public health, safety, animal welfare etc of less effective airguns versus more poison, trapping, shotguns, rimfire and so on.

The report (I don't know if you have actually read it) is ONLY interested in the impact of lead/lead poisoning on nature & the environment, according to their figures 2000 tonnes of lead is shot in to the UK environment every year & i'm not sure they even included airguns in those figures because they're from ammunition sales & pellets aren't recorded, as I've already said they have no data for airgun hunting with lead free, so that is exactly the type of point you need to make on the consultation form I've already had my say on it.

Re head shots, you can hit the head & still not cause significant damage to the brain, any benefit that pellet expansion/deformation gives to energy transfer, can only be of benefit.

[johnnytheboy]

Basc website is stating air rifle pellets are included and the ban will happen 2024!

If I were buying a new gun I’d be considering the caliber, if the power can be professionally recalibrated to 12ftLbs for the lighter pellets and if the barrel is chrome lined to deal with extra wear from harder pellets.

[Otto]

Interesting thought, I'm just about to buy a new fac air rifle, is .25 the way to go?

Had .22 .25 and .30 all fac . I think .22 with slugs is the most expensive efficient as you get more shots per charge and using my m3 impact I am shooting H&N 27g .218 slugs at 990 fps and getting about 100 shots a charge. It bucks the wind well and will do .5 and moa groups at 50m and 1 to 1.5 at 100m.
It also kills all small vermin well . .25 is also very good slightly more power but less shots per fill.

[Otto]

Expensive was a typo

[TonyL]

I wonder how much testing and experimentation is happening behind the scenes right now with the pellet manufacturers and also the rifle / barrel makers and how much communication and cooperation there is between them? There surely MUST be lots happening?

Maybe a long-standing test series of lead free contenders in the magazines will help and give that stable voice we / the makers need to help develop the lead free into something altogether more suitable for the long term?

[egghead]

I bought some LF pellets in .177 to test last weekend, H&N Barracuda Green, H&N FTT Green and RWS Hyperdome.
I used my FX typhoon as a test bed which has a Weihrauch barrel on it (rifled, choked).
All gave satisfactory groups at 25 yards but were like a shotgun at 40 yards.
I cleaned the barrel thoroughly before I started and lubed the pellets.

I have the original smooth twist barrel for the Typhoon still, I will try that at some point.
Has anybody any experience of a smooth twist barrel with lead free pellets?
Regards
Dave

[flyingfish]

Dave
What did you lube them with?

[BC312]

JSB .25 Pb free 16.54gn, my Scorpion sub 12 loves them,
the problem is they're still way too hard & hardly deform at all on impact with a hard target, there's zero expansion on prey, they just punch straight through without pausing.

Not sure of the exact PB free material they use but i am sure they can manufacture a pellet in the future that could be a little softer just by adding something to the melting pot. Once its known that PB free lead is definitely established and law, hoping its not, then manufactures will continually make improvements over time and new airgun barrels will be made to suite the new projectiles. Pellets and slugs will most probably be matched to the normal weights of the old lead projectiles, so they are bigger in length, so a .22 21 grain slug would match a standard .22 14 grain pellet, not sure what the weight ratio is of lead and lead free.

[angrybear]

Well I just had a play with some JSB Pb free .22, 11.75gn in the Rapid, across the chrono - 663fps ave for 11.47ftlb,
compared to FX (JSB) 16gn 580fps for 11.87ftlb, so nowhere near the relative energy loss of the .25 Pb free in the Scorpion SE.

target
https://ibb.co/k0Fy03N

[maximus]

Well I just had a play with some JSB Pb free .22, 11.75gn in the Rapid, across the chrono - 663fps ave for 11.47ftlb,
compared to FX (JSB) 16gn 580fps for 11.87ftlb, so nowhere near the relative energy loss of the .25 Pb free in the Scorpion SE.

target
https://ibb.co/k0Fy03N

Not bad groups from the pb free, what was the distance AB?