HW40, Gamo compact, IZH46M or Rohm twinmaster Top?

[harvey_s]

Just to throw in another wild card....
If you can find one - a FAS AP604 is a good compromise...
Manufacturers details here...
http://www.dominoguns.it/catalogo/?p...ria-compressa-

Its as light as a gamo compact, significantly easier to cock (same overlever method) and has a massively better trigger and grip.
Its very well made too - no plastic anywhere.
I've owned both and the FAS will easily outshoot you for quite a few years while you save up for something better.

BAR were selling them new at one point, but typically S/H they go at about the £150-200 mark

However, they are not so easy to find - but you could try a wanted ad.

[Prone Shooter]

Just to throw in another wild card....
If you can find one - a FAS AP604 is a good compromise...
Manufacturers details here...
http://www.dominoguns.it/catalogo/?p...ria-compressa-

Its as light as a gamo compact, significantly easier to cock (same overlever method) and has a massively better trigger and grip.
Its very well made too - no plastic anywhere.
I've owned both and the FAS will easily outshoot you for quite a few years while you save up for something better.

BAR were selling them new at one point, but typically S/H they go at about the £150-200 mark

However, they are not so easy to find - but you could try a wanted ad.

Another vote for the Fas from me. Probably the best over lever pnuematic made and far far superior to the compact and the HW40. I do have a 604 for sale on behalf of a member of the club where I coach. PM if interested.

A word or warning with the HW40 (oh and true glows are not allowed in ISSF competition), on occasions I have noticed a prominant muzzle flip when being used by shooters with a light grip (which you should be using anyway) and in particular kids and ladies. It would only really be an issue paper punching, but it will and does affect accuracy.

The Compact is the best all round starter match pistol but may need some work to the grip and a good polish of the sears to improve it.

My advice whilst not diminishing what others like Derek and Nige have posted would be to go for a compact, 604 or the Alpha to start you off, then as funds become available, an LP2 Junior although Walther also do a junior version which is worth looking at.

Finally the Rohms (the fact that there have been very few replies might be worth considering). Great for general shooting and fun but they have two major draw backs for serious 10m which are a fiddly single shot magazine and a slow lock time due to the hammer having to strike the release valve. Neither of these are helpful in competition.

Good luck.

Bob

[Adam77K]

Finally the Rohms (the fact that there have been very few replies might be worth considering). Great for general shooting and fun but they have two major draw backs for serious 10m which are a fiddly single shot magazine and a slow lock time due to the hammer having to strike the release valve. Neither of these are helpful in competition.

I own a Rohm Top, albeit modified for pistol FT, and I've never shot 10m properly, just the odd offhand plink at paper targets at a club and shooting the UBC 6yds comp, so I can't really comment about its use for 10m.

I would tend to agree with the comment about the single shot mag. A slightly fiddly loading cycle but you get used to it quickly.

However this thing about lock time. Has the lock time of the Rohm pistols been actually measured vs. other pistols? Yes the hammer has to snap forwards before the valve gets opened but once the trigger breaks the hammer doesn't hang about! What mechanism for opening the valve do other pistols use, and what kind of time advantage do they bring? Certainly most PCP rifles use a spring loaded hammer to knock open a valve so it must be popular in pistols too, being so cheap and simple to make (talking about cheap to mid range guns here, not top end). Unless we're talking about solenoids and other electrickery, the valve must be opened by spring pressure.

I'd be surprised if there was more than a few milliseconds between the different mechanisms which would be negligible compared to the time from the brain issuing the command to fire and the finger moving the trigger.

These days I'm increasingly of the opinion that the search for quickest lock time in airguns is a red herring, and furthermore that the only benefit of lightning lock times is to (attempt to) mask poor technique.

[Prone Shooter]

I own a Rohm Top, albeit modified for pistol FT, and I've never shot 10m properly, just the odd offhand plink at paper targets at a club and shooting the UBC 6yds comp, so I can't really comment about its use for 10m.

I would tend to agree with the comment about the single shot mag. A slightly fiddly loading cycle but you get used to it quickly.

However this thing about lock time. Has the lock time of the Rohm pistols been actually measured vs. other pistols? Yes the hammer has to snap forwards before the valve gets opened but once the trigger breaks the hammer doesn't hang about! What mechanism for opening the valve do other pistols use, and what kind of time advantage do they bring? Certainly most PCP rifles use a spring loaded hammer to knock open a valve so it must be popular in pistols too, being so cheap and simple to make (talking about cheap to mid range guns here, not top end). Unless we're talking about solenoids and other electrickery, the valve must be opened by spring pressure.

I'd be surprised if there was more than a few milliseconds between the different mechanisms which would be negligible compared to the time from the brain issuing the command to fire and the finger moving the trigger.

These days I'm increasingly of the opinion that the search for quickest lock time in airguns is a red herring, and furthermore that the only benefit of lightning lock times is to (attempt to) mask poor technique.

Hi Adam

In a nice comfy stable position the lock time is less important, but when your at a 10m shoulder to shoulder, every millisecond can count and having shot many pistols over the years, you can tell the difference. The Rohm in particular seems to take forever to release the shot. Much of this is down to the trigger set up which you can't expect to be the same as a pistol costing twice or more as much. IMO if you're going to spend out on a decent pistol, you need to go from an entry level to a match grade pistol in one move. I'm not advocating this for back garden plinking or even HFT but ask any seasoned 10m pistol shooter what they use or would prefer to use and I doubt many would opt for anything less that a quality PCP.

The same applies in particular to FT and to a lesser extent in HFT. The quicker the lock time, the faster that pellet is heading into the kill zone. There's a measurable difference to my EV2 and any other rifle i've got. I miss far more targets with the "basic" rifles than I do with the EV when taking kneelers or standers or even on a windy day.

I wonder how many MK3 owners would go back to a "standard" rifle?

Its the samer old thing though with any gun, pistol or rifle. You always think you've got the best until you try someone elses more expensive gun.

Why I even thought my Drulov was the bees knees when I got it
Cracking pistol for HFT but nowhere near the grade for 10m.

Bob

[Adam77K]

Hi Bob

[Apologies to the OP for long thread hijack!]

Just want to say I'm not fighting the Rohm's corner as the gun to get for 10m by any means. I like mine but wouldn't buy a new one. I'd put that money toward a 2nd hand Steyr LP50

I'd agree with the points about entry level straight to quality if you're serious, but that's not really the issue. My issue is with lock time being some sort of holy grail. People constantly spout stuff about gun A having a "quicker" lock time than gun B, but how much quicker? Where are the figures?

I don't doubt that your high end rifles are better than your lesser ones, but is that solely down to lock time? I doubt it very much.

Your EV2 for instance is designed for FT. Trigger pull, adjustments, stock etc all add to the whole package. It's bound to help scores in FT vs a standard sporter. I shoot FT with my HW100 and my scores on kneelers and standers improved hugely just by putting a GinB FT stock on it. I've tried Steyrs and Dommies though not an EV2 and I've noticed no earth shattering difference in lock time over my HW. The Walther trigger is quite a bit better but that's to be expected.

Fair enough point about the trigger on the Rohm, it's certainly not in the same league as my FWB 65 for example, but that's irrelevant to lock time which starts when the trigger breaks.

My position is, all other things being equal, lock time does not make as much difference as people think. In fact I'd go so far as to say it's virtually negligible, and the only benefit of it is a form of "placebo effect" where if people are likely to have more confidence in gun A than gun B.

Let's take a simple example. Imagine your crosshairs sweep across a 40mm kill zone in quarter of a second (so 160mm/sec). You break the trigger when the crosshair is in the centre of the kill zone. Imagine your rifle has a lock time of 8ms. The pellet will leave the muzzle when the crosshair is 1.28mm off centre. Imagine then a rifle with a lock time of 13ms* (a difference of 5ms). The crosshair will have moved 2.08mm, a difference of 0.8mm!

Actually I suspected the differences would be small but I'm actually surprised how small!

* Source: Cardew, The Airgun from Trigger to Target. He quotes typical lock time of a PCP as 8.6ms and a springer as 13ms.

[derekm]

Good God! 4.4msec difference! That's time to read the Daily Mail. Well maybe not quite. Maybe the Sun?

[Phantom Sniper]

After all this invaluable and useless advice, The question is now!!!!!

Lynne What will you choose

Tony