Who made a Gem pattern?...

[Garvin]

Think Lane Brothers were only retailers who adapted and improved certain Gem patterns, mainly EG types but possibly others too?

Think Boker was a retailer as well?...

That doesn't surprise me Dave. Why build something when you can just stick your name on something someone else has done!

[edbear2]

That doesn't surprise me Dave. Why build something when you can just stick your name on something someone else has done!

Lincoln Jeffries springs to mind, although he supposedly "improved" aspects of the foreign guns he sold and stamped up before he came up with his tap loading patent. I can't recall in which book it is I read about in now, but the subject of British gunsmiths importing and stamping up foreign guns was a huge bone of contention way back for the Birmingham and London makers.

ATB, Ed

[ccdjg]

The company K.B Paris had a range of Gem type airguns around 1900. I am pretty sure that they made these themselves, as all their other guns (air pistols and toy guns) were made by them, and in fact it is stated that their specific intent was to provide a domestic range of airguns to compete with foreign imports.

[DCL_dave]

Lincoln Jeffries springs to mind, although he supposedly "improved" aspects of the foreign guns he sold and stamped up before he came up with his tap loading patent. I can't recall in which book it is I read about in now, but the subject of British gunsmiths importing and stamping up foreign guns was a huge bone of contention way back for the Birmingham and London makers.

ATB, Ed

HI Ed,

Have we seen a LJ marked Gem pattern in the wild?...I honestly can't remember!...I seem to remember that LJ did put his moniker on some of the Militas of the day though...

The company K.B Paris had a range of Gem type airguns around 1900. I am pretty sure that they made these themselves, as all their other guns (air pistols and toy guns) were made by them, and in fact it is stated that their specific intent was to provide a domestic range of airguns to compete with foreign imports.

Hi John,

Thank you, I had not heard of K.B.Paris but do seem to remember another French name...'Coire''?...or something like that?...ring any bells with you or anyone else? (or is it coconut husk! )

Have any actual examples of a K.B. Paris airgun or Gem pattern showed up anywhere?...I wonder if that advertising spiel is just that - spiel?...and, given that half of Belgium spoke French, whether it is a re-branded Belgian Marck Gem pattern or similar German type?...

[DCL_dave]

A somewhat bold statement it may be but here goes...I think most* of the European Gem patterns were made by one of three manufacturers - Eisenwerk Gaggenau, Langanhan or Jean Marck.

I seem to remember some Bergman marked Gem patterns too (were these likely to have been made by EG though?)

....and the mysterious Harpoon trademark...was that something to do with Bergman too?

MGR/Diana Gems bare an uncanny resemblance to LZ/FLZ Gems...both Diana 3L types (T-bar and dolls head) and Diana 6 share so many similarities with the Langanhan Gem patterns in there overall shape and design...

Sorry, my knowledge on this subject is so random and scattered that it is difficult to make sense of it, I rarely write anything down always relying on my memory...and have forgotten lots in the few short years I have been away...I wonder if this info is still relevant?



*obviously not all!

[frakor]

A somewhat bold statement it may be but here goes...I think most* of the European Gem patterns were made by one of three manufacturers - Eisenwerk Gaggenau, Langanhan or Jean Marck.

I seem to remember some Bergman marked Gem patterns too (were these likely to have been made by EG though?)

....and the mysterious Harpoon trademark...was that something to do with Bergman too?

MGR/Diana Gems bare an uncanny resemblance to LZ/FLZ Gems...both Diana 3L types (T-bar and dolls head) and Diana 6 share so many similarities with the Langanhan Gem patterns in there overall shape and design...

Sorry, my knowledge on this subject is so random and scattered that it is difficult to make sense of it, I rarely write anything down always relying on my memory...and have forgotten lots in the few short years I have been away...I wonder if this info is still relevant?



*obviously not all!

I tend to agree with the above.
There are a few German sites about Eisenwerke Gaggenau and it is interesting to notice the change in the name of the factory:


1873 Michael Flürscheim und Franz Korwan kaufen am 1. Februar das Eisenwerk von Ludwig Klehe

Firmenname: „Korwan und Flürscheim Eisenwerke Gaggenau bei Rastatt“ (vormals Louis Görger)


Do you remeber where the Diana (Mayer und Grammelspacher) factory was located? in Rastatt!
It seems very likely MGR bought the forged/cast parts from EG in rough form to create their own GEM?
A few years later the EG factory got a new name:

1880 Theodor Bergmann, ein Herdfabrikant aus Konstanz, tritt in die Firma ein.

Emailierwerk, Stanzerei, Vernickelungsanstalt, Buchdruckerei, Schreinerei und Kunstgießerei werden eingerichtet. Neues Produkt: Badenia-Fahrräder

150 Mitarbeiter

1884 Bergmann wird Teilhaber. Firmenname: „Eisenwerke Gaggenau, Flürscheim und Bergmann“


So there is the connection with the Bergmann marked GEM's.

The Jean Marck GEM's are different in construction and (in my opinion) made by a Belgium? factory.

================
Frank

[greenwayjames]

I have always thought the gem pattern was of foreign make due to its use of defintitely metric sized bits. Just guesswork but could the definitely way oversized .177" rifled barrels be as a result of them starting life as .177" smoothbores. L&J used to do the same with Militas and get them rifled in the trade in Brum as did others. There was little or no distinction between gunmakers and retailers.

[DCL_dave]

I tend to agree with the above.
There are a few German sites about Eisenwerke Gaggenau and it is interesting to notice the change in the name of the factory:


1873 Michael Flürscheim und Franz Korwan kaufen am 1. Februar das Eisenwerk von Ludwig Klehe

Firmenname: „Korwan und Flürscheim Eisenwerke Gaggenau bei Rastatt“ (vormals Louis Görger)


Do you remeber where the Diana (Mayer und Grammelspacher) factory was located? in Rastatt!
It seems very likely MGR bought the forged/cast parts from EG in rough form to create their own GEM?
A few years later the EG factory got a new name:

1880 Theodor Bergmann, ein Herdfabrikant aus Konstanz, tritt in die Firma ein.

Emailierwerk, Stanzerei, Vernickelungsanstalt, Buchdruckerei, Schreinerei und Kunstgießerei werden eingerichtet. Neues Produkt: Badenia-Fahrräder

150 Mitarbeiter

1884 Bergmann wird Teilhaber. Firmenname: „Eisenwerke Gaggenau, Flürscheim und Bergmann“


So there is the connection with the Bergmann marked GEM's.

The Jean Marck GEM's are different in construction and (in my opinion) made by a Belgium? factory.

================
Frank

Hi Frank

Again, very interesting, just been reading about the connections between Oscar will, Diana/MGR and Langenhahn too... (I always spell his name wrong!...argh!...)

The Jean Marck guns were made in their own factory in the gun quarter of Liege, Belgium.

[leh22]

A somewhat bold statement it may be but here goes...I think most* of the European Gem patterns were made by one of three manufacturers - Eisenwerk Gaggenau, Langanhan or Jean Marck.

I seem to remember some Bergman marked Gem patterns too (were these likely to have been made by EG though?)

....and the mysterious Harpoon trademark...was that something to do with Bergman too?

MGR/Diana Gems bare an uncanny resemblance to LZ/FLZ Gems...both Diana 3L types (T-bar and dolls head) and Diana 6 share so many similarities with the Langanhan Gem patterns in there overall shape and design...

Sorry, my knowledge on this subject is so random and scattered that it is difficult to make sense of it, I rarely write anything down always relying on my memory...and have forgotten lots in the few short years I have been away...I wonder if this info is still relevant?



*obviously not all!

I'm pretty sure that the Harpoon stamping was simply the trademark used by the U.K. retailer/jobber "Osborne"

LarryH

[DCL_dave]

Sorry for the loss of your friend,
Yes,a big collection is a responsibility and can be very time consuming.Where I am a number of years ago we lost a great air gun range and there has not really been anything nearly as good or as convenient locally since, for me at least, and selling off much of my collection,too is something I regularly mull over...

ATB.

Hi Mark

Thank you for your kind words. Re. the collection, I had around 50 Gem patterns and i learned a lot from them, they were fun to own and shoot (I always took a Gem or two to the club) and very frustrating to research...many is the night spent chasing half chance ideas down blind alleys to come to no conclusions and be none the wiser!

I'm pretty sure that the Harpoon stamping was simply the trademark used by the U.K. retailer/jobber "Osborne"

LarryH

Thank you so much, Larry...that mark has vexed me for years!

So, another retailer then...and the list gets shorter

[edbear2]

HI Ed,

Have we seen a LJ marked Gem pattern in the wild?...I honestly can't remember!...I seem to remember that LJ did put his moniker on some of the Militas of the day though...



Hi Dave, I was alluding to / answering Garvin's comment about British makers stamping foreign guns, and was off thread as obviously Lincoln did the Militias as you say, good job I didn't waffle on about Ansonias and others as I was going to !

ATB, Ed

[DCL_dave]

Hi Dave, I was alluding to / answering Garvin's comment about British makers stamping foreign guns, and was off thread as obviously Lincoln did the Militias as you say, good job I didn't waffle on about Ansonias and others as I was going to !

ATB, Ed

Hi Ed,

Ah...now I see it!

[ccdjg]

HI Ed,


Thank you, I had not heard of K.B.Paris but do seem to remember another French name...'Coire''?...or something like that?...ring any bells with you or anyone else? (or is it coconut husk! )

Have any actual examples of a K.B. Paris airgun or Gem pattern showed up anywhere?...I wonder if that advertising spiel is just that - spiel?...and, given that half of Belgium spoke French, whether it is a re-branded Belgian Marck Gem pattern or similar German type?...

They certainly did make a range of their own air rifles and pistols, but I can't be sure that the Gem types they sold weren't German or Belgian imports, as (as far as I know) no examples have ever turned up. Mind you, they were not great exporters so all their guns are very rare, and only likely to be found in France. According to their catalogue description, if they did turn up they might have been marked "La Guillaume Tell" or even more confusingly just "Tell".

Only relatively recently did this pistol came to light, which is one of theirs, called the "Scolaire No. 2". It is a copy (improved) of the EG Dolla-type pistol of the period.






Another catalogue picture of one of their pistols shows it to be very similar to, but not identical with, the Jean Marck Gem air pistol. One of these has never been found, but I live in hopes.



Sorry, I have never come across the name 'Coire' in connection with an airgun.

Cheers,
John

[DCL_dave]

They certainly did make a range of their own air rifles and pistols, but I can't be sure that the Gem types they sold weren't German or Belgian imports, as (as far as I know) no examples have ever turned up. Mind you, they were not great exporters so all their guns are very rare, and only likely to be found in France. According to their catalogue description, if they did turn up they might have been marked "La Guillaume Tell" or even more confusingly just "Tell".

Only relatively recently did this pistol came to light, which is one of theirs, called the "Scolaire No. 2". It is a copy (improved) of the EG Dolla-type pistol of the period.






Another catalogue picture of one of their pistols shows it to be very similar to, but not identical with, the Jean Marck Gem air pistol. One of these has never been found, but I live in hopes.



Sorry, I have never come across the name 'Coire' in connection with an airgun.

Cheers,
John

Thank you again, John,

It is very interesting that there was a possible connection through the air pistols at least to K.B with both EG and JM, and shows that, if they did manufacture their own pistols, they were not above copying the designs of the foreign imports...

Would it be safe to assume that their "Tell" branding wasn't anything to do with Oscar Will or Diana/MGR then?