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Thread: Air rifle cylinder laws?

  1. #16
    magicniner is offline The Posh Knocking Shop Artist Formerly Known as Nocturnal Nick
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    Wibble?

  2. #17
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    testing

    you will find all you need to know in the The Pressure Systems and Transportable Gas Containers regulations 1989

    any pressure vessel under 250 bar.litres (volume x pressure )does not fall within these regs

  3. #18
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    i think im right in saying cylinders under 500cc do not require testing, regarding the safety of older cylinders, i dont think any british manufactuer offer a pressure testing facility, i dont see how they could offer such a test, what would you test them to? unlike diving cylinders that have a reccomended working pressure and a test pressure stamped on the cylinder, air rifles do not, so what would you test them to??,

    its ok for manufactures to say the RWP of a rifle is 200bar, so in theory you should be able to test the cylinder to approx 340bar with no problems, i doubt some rifles would pass that test, so what are the safety margins they build into the rifles, it would be interesting to ask them,

    it seems to me manufactures seem obsessed with lightness and shot capacity, and dont give much thought to the cylinder construction, everything is done to a minimum, eg minimum amounts of threads on the valves, minimum wall thickness on the tube, if you look at the specs reccomended by the tube manufactures, some of the guns are on the limit, personaly i would rarther have a gun which weighed a pound more but had a robust cylinder

    the best way i would think to test a cylinder would be how they do it at BOC ect, first visual test, inspect for internal rust and external pitting, lets face it, if there is no pitting or rust there should be no problem, my freind works in the test dept at BOC and tells me the have bottles over 50 years old still in service, steels ones though, the next test would be done with ultrasonics to look for internal flaws, the good thing about that is i does not over stress anything, but finding someone who offers that service is the problem

  4. #19
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    Sparton
    Yes, you and the other guy are correct, the cylinders are not covered by UK regs. The Germans regs did not cover them either, and as far as I'm aware still don't, it was down to manufacturers standards and product liability. When these cases occured the German manufactureres all got together and set a cylinder life and testing requirement, as far as I'm aware they have not published their testiing standard, but in the event of a failure of a cylinder within its 10 year life they would be called upon to satisfy the authorities that those standards were satisfactory and that the cylinders had met them to meet their obligation under product liability which is law.
    I repeat again, the German manufacturers directive I do not believe is enforciable in UK law (unless it is made a EU safety directive and I have no knowledge of any moves in that direction). In fact one Italian manufacturer had given their cylinders a 20 year life so it cant be set in stone, whether they have supply problems to Germany I don't know. I am unaware if any UK gun manufacturers have a cylinder life or if cyinders from their products are date marked, if they are its up to them to demonstate its adequacy.
    The original question was, does the German directive apply here, the answer is directly no, but UK safety legislation where no regulation applies uses "best practice" and the German directive could be interpreted as such. It is irrelavent as long as every thing works fine, no one can say that a cylinder is illegal because its over ten years old but if one goes pop resulting in an injury it could be up to an idividual or a business in a civil or HSE case as a defence to demonstate that they had followed all practical requirements and in the absence of regulation that may be best practice.
    The problem is, the Germans are a big and influential market, and by them taking this step there is a danger that others may be forced into the same action.
    This came out of Germany, they make the majority of target air guns, the ISSF have a safety rule that states that guns must comply with the manufactures safety requirements so any German gun (most) used in ISSF events must comply with the ten year rule.
    Cylinders are not blowing like party ballons, as long as they don't this should stay at that level, as I said let the sleeping dog lay.
    Best regards
    Robin

  5. #20
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    Be a bit awkward testing the AA cylinders after 10 years, or any time period.

    They deform if overfilled and would not take the test pressure. What other manufacturers test to I don't know. If all cylinders are tested (not just samples) I can't recall seeing any stampings for any manufacturer. Some cylinders do have it etched on but would that be good enough ?

    Do the "Bottle" rifles have tested/stamped bottles ?

    ATB
    Ray

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raygun View Post
    Be a bit awkward testing the AA cylinders after 10 years, or any time period.

    They deform if overfilled and would not take the test pressure. What other manufacturers test to I don't know. If all cylinders are tested (not just samples) I can't recall seeing any stampings for any manufacturer. Some cylinders do have it etched on but would that be good enough ?

    Do the "Bottle" rifles have tested/stamped bottles ?

    ATB
    Ray
    as far as i know the bottles are all tested and stamped, made by luxfor in the uk.

    as you say certain cylinders would deform, but they get round that by boring out the end where the o ring seals, if its then overfilled the end of the tube bulges and the o ring extrudes out releaseing all the pressure, which also ruins the cylinder, also frightens the life out of you when it happens, but i surpose thats better than the complete valve coming out

    when i first started to make my rifles 20 years ago, i made the cylinder, and submited it to Lloyds british to have it tested and to see if the way i had constructed it was correct, even though i tested it myself, its always best to get it checked by people who specialise it that field, and get there oppinion.

    i can only presume other manufactures have done the same, but i was once asked by a big manufacturer how i tested my cylinders, and could i make them the the same type of testing gear i use, when i asked how had they been testing them, there answer was, they did'nt when i questioned them regarding testing they had not got a clue, frightning, i can only hope they have advanced somewhat.

    regarding testing the cylinders after 10 years, i know they reccomend buying a new bottle after 10 years, on the bottle rifles, but they are made off aluminium , much the same as most of the german made guns, i know alloy can degrade over time, what the life of alloy cylinders is, i dont know, but i know this when they fail its catastrophic, unlike steel which just splits.

    i have checked many steel cylinders over the years, many of them 20 years old, and have never come across any internaly pitted cylinders, yet

    but whos to say when a gun is scrap, especially some of the older alloy one piece tube rifles, which i doubt you could get a new cylinder for. i have only herd of two cylinders failing over the years, and both had alloy cylinders

  7. #22
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    spare cylinder would be vry handy

    just reading what you all say about reservoir cylinders. i think its down 2 yourself . if its old and tattered do you want it blowing up in yours or even worse your lads face as shot is taken. i think not could do with some advice though. cant find a site with price of spare karbine cylinder, for those long days with dogs out. any help welcome thanks.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by geeroffmiland View Post
    just reading what you all say about reservoir cylinders. i think its down 2 yourself . if its old and tattered do you want it blowing up in yours or even worse your lads face as shot is taken. i think not could do with some advice though. cant find a site with price of spare karbine cylinder, for those long days with dogs out. any help welcome thanks.
    what rifle is the cylinder for???

  9. #24
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    Red face air cylinders

    Gents i read with great interest: It is my undertanding that air cylinders are not subject to pressure testing as they are under 1/2 litre capacity as already mentioned test pressure are at least 340 bar for a 200 bar fill
    If you have ever charged a cylinder you will know that they get hot this is what is known as parelstatic heating and over a period of time can weaken large cylinders.
    Large cyliders are subject to a 5 year test regardless of materials used for thier construction.
    Steel cylinders have no life span and are good until the test station says othewise
    Composite cylinders must be scrapped at year 15 regardless of condition
    Oh one last thing please remember you get.
    Air in cylinders
    Soldiers in tanks
    Milk in bottles
    Sorry gents!!

  10. #25
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    when i first started to make my rifles 20 years ago, i made the cylinder, and submited it to Lloyds british to have it tested and to see if the way i had constructed it was correct, even though i tested it myself, its always best to get it checked by people who specialise it that field, and get there oppinion.

    i can only presume other manufactures have done the same, but i was once asked by a big manufacturer how i tested my cylinders, and could i make them the the same type of testing gear i use, when i asked how had they been testing them, there answer was, they did'nt when i questioned them regarding testing they had not got a clue, frightning, i can only hope they have advanced somewhat.

    You are not referring to a manufacturer based in Stone by any chance Shaun......

    I doubt if any of the cylinders in your guns would burst, 1/8 thick wall on a 1 inch od cylinder, Jesus wept, no wonder they weigh a ton


    Dave

  11. #26
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    25x3 Dave same as first one i made. 1/2" BSP threads.

    All mine hand made one offs were individually tested, Saun will know that at 6300 psi it sheared a rated 10000 psi grease gun 1/8"BSP nipple.

    Those that say its up to the individual whether to use or not is irrelevant, its the manufacturer for not designing and producing correctly saving 10p on a tube and 1/4Lb in weight!
    How many have even done a single test, destructive or otherwise yet alone test every cylinder and bought in the thousands!

    Seen plenty of bad designs over the years, tube it self may have been strong enough but how the valves attached is a different matter. I could real a load straight off from UK, US and chinky. More importantly its a danger to others around not the users!
    We wont mention the QF conversions threaded into Luxfer bottles, thats the mentality and exactly same principles apply to all above.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raygun View Post
    Be a bit awkward testing the AA cylinders after 10 years, or any time period.

    They deform if overfilled and would not take the test pressure. What other manufacturers test to I don't know. If all cylinders are tested (not just samples) I can't recall seeing any stampings for any manufacturer. Some cylinders do have it etched on but would that be good enough ?

    Do the "Bottle" rifles have tested/stamped bottles ?

    ATB
    Ray
    Sports match did hydraulic pressure testing of the GC2's cylinders and I think they still have the equipment at their works,probably taken to 1.5 x working pressure. Mine had a ultra sonic/radio isotope check as did a batch in the 90's.Besides their tubes are built like tanks .
    HERX77 .
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  13. #28
    magicniner is offline The Posh Knocking Shop Artist Formerly Known as Nocturnal Nick
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoogs View Post
    parelstatic
    Have another shot at that one please, the word doesn't seem to exist,
    Sorry Fella!
    Nick

    Answer can be found here though,

    http://www.physicsforums.com/archive...p/t-39446.html

    Enjoy!
    Last edited by magicniner; 01-01-2010 at 06:47 PM. Reason: Add link

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