The 12ft/lbs Limit Is Really Stupid

[Phillip Pyne]

It is though, isn't it? Why do we put up with such rubbish? Maybe we should go for a certificate like the old shotgun license. I would vote for registering and a 40ft/lb limit if I didn't think it would be one step towards getting rid of the airgun forever. Which it would be. Why don't they limit all cars and bikes to 50 horse-power? it would save thousands of lives.

Golly things get on my t1ts this time of night.

Stop worrying about what you haven't got mate, and make the most of what you have got. There's a lot of hunting success and good fun to be got from sub twelve foot pound rifles.
FAC will only give you an extra ten yards or so of effective range and the legal limit gives you hassle free official anonymity and the freedom to own as many off ticket guns as you want.
Remember also that in the event of a Government general ban on airguns, FAC ticket holders will be the first to lose their guns.

[bozzerman]

I seem to remember the 12 ftpd limit came in when the English (BSA/Webley) springers were doing @9 or 10 FP. The yanks were banging out the old pump ups for peanuts which could easily outperform (powerwise) the British guns.(Late 60's/70's)

So.......along comes a 12 FP limit.

From a hunting with airguns point of view I think it is a reasonable limit. One can take all airgun quarry out to 40/50 yards with a 12 FP gun......If you can hit the kill zone. A FAC gun will only give you an extra 10 or so yards as has been stated.

The thing that I find stupid.......In the old days (when the limit was introduced) there were few if any springers that could do 12FP. Now, most decent off the shelf springers will do 13 to 15 FP. They are even running at their best at this velocity. We are literally 'crippling' them to make them run under 12FP. I know there are more exceptions now.....HW80, AA PS etc that will do 20FP+ but it seems madness that an off the shelf springer doing 12.5FP can get you 5 years in the clink. I still don't believe any police force would enforce such madness unless you were shooting old ladies coming out of the bingo hall but technically it's a possibility.

Trouble is......if you made the limit 15FP. People would try and push the guns to 14.999999999FP.......because they CAN.

Just a few thoughts.

B Z

[Shed tuner]

FAC airguns give you a lot more than 10 yards, as in addition to the trajectory advantages, pellets are less affected by wind, and the kill zone becomes much larger.

Whilst I too have had plenty of sucess with 12 FP airguns, I honestly believe they are marginal for hunting - akin to a .22 LR for fox, for example, where shot placement within 1" is the only way to guarantee a clean kill...

[bozzerman]

Fair play Jon...

I've never used FAC so I can't really comment....just wonder how many folk can hit the 'kill' at 60+ yards even with a flatter FAC. Maybe the 'kill' area is bigger? Do you still have to hit them in the brain with 24FP(ME) or will a body shot do? A more reasonable range for 12FP hunting is probably max 35 yards for most people anyway. So how about typically 35 yards 12FP and typically quite a bit further with FAC.

We hear all the talk of only hunting when you can put all your pellets inside a 1 inch circle at the range you are going to hunt (12FP). Take a look at the HFT results. Max distance 45 yards with 40mm kill zone......25mm kill out to 35yards. So why don't all the 'hunters' clear every course when you can spend time finding the right position and those metal targets don't move or run off? I know, I know......it's not true simulated hunting and you would never take the shot when hunting if you had to stand on your head etc. Not really talking about the top shooters, but there will be plenty of folk who miss half the course and claim to take bunnies out at silly ranges with 12FP.

Boz

[GATMAN]

FAC airguns give you a lot more than 10 yards, as in addition to the trajectory advantages, pellets are less affected by wind, and the kill zone becomes much larger.

Whilst I too have had plenty of sucess with 12 FP airguns, I honestly believe they are marginal for hunting - akin to a .22 LR for fox, for example, where shot placement within 1" is the only way to guarantee a clean kill...

I have to agree with Jon on this also.

Having seen a 33 ft/lb Rapid shoot a 12 shot mag of AA field .22 into a thumbnail sized group at a measured 70 yards (inside a warehouse from a bench); It makes me wonder where this talk of "only gains you an extra 10 or so yards" comes from

Paul.

[bozzerman]

I have to agree with Jon on this also.

Having seen a 33 ft/lb Rapid shoot a 12 shot mag of AA field .22 into a thumbnail sized group at a measured 70 yards (inside a warehouse from a bench);
Paul.

Just exactly how do you carry the warehouse and the bench around with you when hunting so you can take those 70 yarders.

....and what were the groups with the same gun out in the wind when shooting freehand?

Sorry......I know nowt about hunting/FAC so I'll shut up.

I just posted 'cause I thought the 12fp was introduced because the British guns did @ 10fp and the yankee pump ups/imported guns were threatening the industry.

Boz

[Ray J]

I'm quite happy, I do all I want with 12Ft/lb, Club + a bit of vermin.

However I do agree a legal limit is stupid.

There are enough laws for anyone commiting a crime with a gun, no matter what the gun is.

If you hold up a bank whith an imitation 0 Ft/Lb gun it's the same armed robbery.

I can't see any justification or reason for a legal limit.

Crime commited with a gun yes. But what does a legal limit for Air Rifles of 12Ft/Lb actually do?

Ray

[Baldie]

Whilst I too have had plenty of sucess with 12 FP airguns, I honestly believe they are marginal for hunting - akin to a .22 LR for fox, for example, where shot placement within 1" is the only way to guarantee a clean kill...

I'm in agreement about the 12ftlbs for hunting too. Okay for those who know when and when not to shoot. (And I make no claims about my own skills in this respect). But I see far too many runners - not all mine BTW. My take is that 12ft/lbs (especially in .177 flavour) leaves very little margin for error.

I've not looked at one but I expect the rabbit brain is about the size of a pea? It must be possible to put a 177 through the head of a rabbit (and out the other side) missing the CPU but the lack of 'shock' to the brain allows the rabbit to run (before dying). A .22 is going to suffer less with this, and may even bounce around inside the skull, doing 'the job' more effectively.

One day I'll know how much more effective 24-30ft/lbs rifle is with a .22 pellet at 45-55 yards.

[Phillip Pyne]

Whilst I too have had plenty of sucess with 12 FP airguns, I honestly believe they are marginal for hunting - akin to a .22 LR for fox, for example, where shot placement within 1" is the only way to guarantee a clean kill...

I hunt rabbits with a legal limit girly calibre HW90, and at 40 yards the Superdomes that I use exit the head.
I would hardly call that marginal.
I have also had 50 yard kills with same rifle.

[Baldie]

I hunt rabbits with a legal limit girly calibre HW90, and at 40 yards the Superdomes that I use exit the head.

As I pointed out, this situation is entirely feasible. But a little wind, and it could so easily mean the difference between instant lights out, and something completely undesirable. The point is that being an expert shot, and 'reading' the weather correctly is a must, as the 12ft/lbs leaves no margin for error. This error includes slight wind, misjudging the distance to quarry, and anything else thought would have the pellet 10mm away from where it should be. The sort of problem that a little more power would help avoid.

This isn't supposed to be a solution for poor marksmanship BTW.

[Haje]

If we had firearms laws like those of the USA and the choice of weapons available to them. If you had somewhere safe to use them like your own ranch or other vast open space….. how many people would bother with puny plink plink 12 ft lb air rifles?

They would probably become garden guns, training rifles for youngsters or specialized target rifles. Given the free choice (and a safe back stop) what would you rather shoot, .22 air rifle or a nice centre fire chambered in something like .308 or larger? Given the fact that so many people are trying to push their 12 ftlb rifles up to the maximum they are legally allowed, I think we know the answer….. I certainly get a kick out of shooting my .303 & .308’s

One benefit of the 12 ft lb limit here in the UK is that it helps keep shooting sports open to a far larger proportion of the population by allowing use of rifles that are deemed to be non-lethal than if all guns/rifles became subject to a certification system.

The reason the UK produces such good air-rifles is that we have learnt to make the most of what we can have.

[4.51]

The problem is, everyone wants more than he can have. If we would have your limits in Germany it would be like heaven on earth. Our limit is 7.5 Joule and we are only allowed to shoot on our own ground when there is no chance at all that a pellet could leave the ground you shoot on. Hunting is not allowed at all with airguns. With FAC airguns (WBK in Germany) you are not allowed to shoot on your own ground, only on shooting ranges. You only get a WBK when you can prove the need for that airgun and that is when you join a FT Club for at least one year and shoot there for at least 1 time a month. Then you have to do a test with questions about gun law and you have to shoot several guns to show that you can use them and handle them save. Thats why FT is realy rare in Germany. But shooting on 15mm kill zones up to 15m and 20mm kill zones up to 25m is also realy tricky and I'm happy with that.
So, be happy with what you have.

[ToolGuyFred]

If you're into PCPs...

When you go up from 12 ft/lbs, I understand the power curve gets remarkably steep, so you need a regulated gun. There seem to be plenty of PCPs out there around the 12 mark which manage fine without a reg. Then there's the air consumption from a FAC rated gun, too.

If you need the extra power for hunting, how much of a problem is it to go FAC? (Not trying to stir it, genuine question as I just do casual target stuff at the club with a 12-foot-pounder.)

[Hsing-ee]

Stop worrying about what you haven't got mate, and make the most of what you have got. .

well I was more worrying about getting five years for a rifle inadvertently doing 13 ft/lbs ...

[stillair1]

I think the 12ftlb limit is fine for hunting especially in .177. FAC air is great for pushing the envelope a few yards further, but who can estimate hold over consistantly once it gets greater than 4 inches in the real world. Add windage to the problem and the .22lr comes to the fore or even something stronger if the land permits.