Dating a Webley Senior via serial number

[Sphiinx]

Good evening to you all. I'm hoping someone in the know can help me with this. I'm looking to find out the age and value of my Webley Senior, but I've hit a wall on where to look.

Generally speaking I don't just mean "I've seen one go for £85" etc. I'd love some specifics regarding and taking into consideration its age mainly.

I'm aware that there are a few different models out there, and so I'll clarify that I have the slanted grip model, in .177, a knurled barrel with black plastic grips bearing the Webley logo.

My serial number above the trigger begins with 'S', which I believe is an indication that it was manufactured pre-war, and the three digits at the front of the barrel are 258.

Full serial number is S197258.

I'm on my phone at the moment so posting a picture is a bit more difficult, but I will later on if need be. I'd just appreciate any new information on this pistol, as it's a lovely piece. Thanks in advance.

[micky]

Good evening to you all. I'm hoping someone in the know can help me with this. I'm looking to find out the age and value of my Webley Senior, but I've hit a wall on where to look.

Generally speaking I don't just mean "I've seen one go for £85" etc. I'd love some specifics regarding and taking into consideration its age mainly.

I'm aware that there are a few different models out there, and so I'll clarify that I have the slanted grip model, in .177, a knurled barrel with black plastic grips bearing the Webley logo.

My serial number above the trigger begins with 'S', which I believe is an indication that it was manufactured pre-war, and the three digits at the front of the barrel are 258.

Full serial number is S197258.

I'm on my phone at the moment so posting a picture is a bit more difficult, but I will later on if need be. I'd just appreciate any new information on this pistol, as it's a lovely piece. Thanks in advance.

Hi and welcome to the BBS, yes it sounds like you have a prewar senior made from 1935 to about 1939, it should have brown grips without Webley logo on them, so yours are later ones, and the barrel is from a later model as it should be without knurling, hope this helps

[Garvin]

Good evening to you all. I'm hoping someone in the know can help me with this. I'm looking to find out the age and value of my Webley Senior, but I've hit a wall on where to look.

Generally speaking I don't just mean "I've seen one go for £85" etc. I'd love some specifics regarding and taking into consideration its age mainly.

I'm aware that there are a few different models out there, and so I'll clarify that I have the slanted grip model, in .177, a knurled barrel with black plastic grips bearing the Webley logo.

My serial number above the trigger begins with 'S', which I believe is an indication that it was manufactured pre-war, and the three digits at the front of the barrel are 258.

Full serial number is S197258.

I'm on my phone at the moment so posting a picture is a bit more difficult, but I will later on if need be. I'd just appreciate any new information on this pistol, as it's a lovely piece. Thanks in advance.

That sounds like an incredibly high serial number! (Too many digits, surely?!) Only the other day one of our resident Webley gurus was saying that serial no. 19000 (c. 1939) was the highest he knew about.

Black plastic slant grips were only on the Mk1 IIRC, so may not be original, as Mick said. I think I remember reading that some very late 'S' prefix Seniors had the knurled barrels, though.

[Sphiinx]

Thanks for the replies, I knew I'd find some knowledge here.

As for the serial, I did read that also, which made mine seem that little more unusual. It's definitely 6 digits, 7 with the letter S included. S197258. The last three of those digits also match the three near the tip of the barrel as they're supposed to: 258

I need to upload a couple of snaps I think. Give me some time.

[Sphiinx]

http:// http://s17.postimg.org/5ogik..._Ser_19000.jpg

Here is one that looks identical to my own. ( Though mine is in better nick )

[Josie & John]

It would be interesting to see some pics, particularly of the markings and serial number. As Garvin points out, the number mentioned sounds like it has 1 digit too many. The barrel knurling was added in 1939 and if this pistol is in the S19000 range, it could date from 1939 or was possibly sold the following year as part of Webley's 200th Anniversary commemoration. Black grips are associated with the Mark I as has been pointed out and I don't know of any fitted to slant grip Seniors. They should fit but whether they were factory fitted or a later replacement is open to speculation.

Kind regards,

John

[gingernut]

What does p stamped at the top of the trigger guard LH side denote?
The more you look at these pistols the more you find!

[Sphiinx]

Just on my way home now ready for another week of work. I'll get some pictures and closeups of the serial, barrel etc when I get there.

Thanks all for the inputs thus far though, I never realised how much variation and interesting information there was about air pistols and rifles until I came here and snooped about. I can feel a hobby burning up from within!

[Sphiinx]

Okay, here are some snaps of the points of interest so to speak. Included are the barrel, and its knurling. The serial number up close, the front barrel serial. The black grips, and markings on the side (Webley patents and Oil etc), and also the letter underneath the trigger guard (is it a T or an L? Unsure, but it probably means something).

Let me know if this link fails to work by the way, as I've never used this image linking thing, and I'm attempting to link an album rather than one picture. Thanks!

http://s172.photobucket.com/user/Chr...bile%20Uploads

[Garvin]

Okay, here are some snaps of the points of interest so to speak. Included are the barrel, and its knurling. The serial number up close, the front barrel serial. The black grips, and markings on the side (Webley patents and Oil etc), and also the letter underneath the trigger guard (is it a T or an L? Unsure, but it probably means something).

Let me know if this link fails to work by the way, as I've never used this image linking thing, and I'm attempting to link an album rather than one picture. Thanks!

http://s172.photobucket.com/user/Chr...bile%20Uploads

The pics are excellent.

I think this is a Birmingham 4 Senior that has been retrospectively stamped with the 'S' plus 6 digits number - perhaps an import number or similar rather that a true Webley factory stamping. The figures are rather larger than on prewar 'S' series pistols and the other markings are consistent with a postwar pistol.

[Sphiinx]

The pics are excellent.

I think this is a Birmingham 4 Senior that has been retrospectively stamped with the 'S' plus 6 digits number - perhaps an import number or similar rather that a true Webley factory stamping. The figures are rather larger than on prewar 'S' series pistols and the other markings are consistent with a postwar pistol.

Thanks for the input Garvin. So essentially your thoughts on this then is that the pistol is actually a post-war later model, with grips that were added by a previous owner rather than manufactured with the gun, and also had the serial number artificially added - assumptively to make the gun appear older?

I can see why someone would do this, but at the same time it seems an awful lot of hassle to go through! I read somewhere that on a pre-war model the three digits on the front face of the barrel area (258 in this case) always matches up to the final three digits of the long serial number above the trigger guard (S197258). Again, I can see why someone would do this to appear more authentic, but had the pistol been post-war, would it not have had a batch number instead, and one that had no resemblance to the number on the front?

I think what I'm secretly hoping is that someone out there has a similar pistol to this, with an equally odd serial number that I can relate to. Because when I consider someone artificially stamping serials and making it seem and look as authentic as it does etc, it seems an awfully large blunder to make to place one too many digits on it haha.

[gingernut]

On balance it looks post war.
The serial no could have been just an error.

My pre war one has 'not to be removed 'stamped at the rear.
Smooth barrel and no 4 after Birmingham.
Five digit no.
That all adds up.

Although a Webley pistol novice compared to some it is clear that there are always questions over odd things on them.
Who knows what has been done to a 50 year old pistol or when ?

I would value yours at £150 as it is in reasonable condition and .177.

[gingernut]

On the same note a friend of mine just bought a Quackenbush rifle for a good price.
It is very clearly stamped and marked with serial number in various places on action and stock.

But whe he gave it to my friend Baz to service and sort he noticed something.

He brought it to show me and yes it's marked Quakenbush.
Quite an expensive missing C in the wrong hands!

[Sphiinx]

Interesting. Forgive my newbish question but: Would this indicate foul play? e.g. a fake gun, fake markings etc. Or is it at all possible that the manufacturing of the gun was a little lax, and this was a genuine error at the time of production?

This is with regards to the 'Quakenbush' as well as my own.

[Garvin]

Interesting. Forgive my newbish question but: Would this indicate foul play? e.g. a fake gun, fake markings etc. Or is it at all possible that the manufacturing of the gun was a little lax, and this was a genuine error at the time of production?

This is with regards to the 'Quakenbush' as well as my own.

My instinct tells me that this is probably not a deliberate attempt to deceive (or if it was, it was half-hearted), because even if the person adding the numbers wasn't sure how many were made, choosing a number near 200,000 would seem unlikely! Then again, it looks very like an attempt to copy the prewar serial number format.

Whether it was a genuine error by Webley at the time it was made is hard to say. In other instances I'm aware of (and like gingernut I'm no expert!) Webley has shown itself to be very precise when it comes to numbering in sequence, so that seems unlikely too.

As always, I'd be very interested to hear what the two Johns (G and M) had to say about it, if they chose to weigh in (again in John Mil's case). David too?

Sometimes when these anomalies come up, I get the feeling that someone from the past is messing with us and having a good old laugh about it, wherever they are now.