Prewar Germans reverse engineer BSAs

[Garvin]

Some quite strong evidence the Germans reverse engineered the BSA Standard when developing the 3rd series Diana 58. But is it surprising, since a lot of the (1915) 1st series mod 58 was a close copy of the BSA Improved model D?

And being perfectionists, in the 1930s M&G couldn't help making improvements as they went along. Why weren't the inter-war BSAs half stocked already, you might wonder? Could a keeper screw on the loading tap cover have saved thousands of knackered BSA screws?

[Drew451]

I find it interesting to compare the superior level of engineering and detail of the model 50 with an Airsporter of similar vintage. Now I see they were at it many, many years before.
There is an old underlever Diana with a buttstock gathering dust in a dealers gun room fairly local to me. I look at it every time I'm in. Also it's cracked stock and scary price tag. Pity.

[Garvin]

I find it interesting to compare the superior level of engineering and detail of the model 50 with an Airsporter of similar vintage. Now I see they were at it many, many years before.
There is an old underlever Diana with a buttstock gathering dust in a dealers gun room fairly local to me. I look at it every time I'm in. Also it's cracked stock and scary price tag. Pity.

I don't personally think the engineering quality of the 58 - Diana's flagship model - is superior to the BSA at all, just that it had extra refinements in terms of the trigger, stock, and loading tap cover.

The prewar Diana models 26, 45, 48 and 58 were all basically close copies of Lincoln Jeffries' original design. You could say the 1930s BSA Breakdown Pattern was a copy of the 1920s buttstock Diana 27 in its turn and the postwar Webley Mk3 was a very clear copy of the prewar Diana 45. So there was a lot of toing and froing of design inspiration between the industrial (and miltary) rivals.

As for the 1950s Airsporter vs the contemporary Diana 50, I certainly see more advanced (ie. economical) steel pressing techniques used on the Diana. But both models were still essentially LJ-type tap loading underlevers and the BSA was probably more refined and elegant from an ownership point of view.

[andrewM]

Very interesting to read, as a 'layman' with little technical knowledge.

At the end of the day, so to speak, it is sad that we lost our lead and BSA is now completely outflanked by the Germans.

A

[Drew451]

I don't personally think the engineering quality of the 58 - Diana's flagship model - is superior to the BSA at all, just that it had extra refinements in terms of the trigger, stock, and loading tap cover.

The prewar Diana models 26, 45, 48 and 58 were all basically close copies of Lincoln Jeffries' original design. You could say the 1930s BSA Breakdown Pattern was a copy of the 1920s buttstock Diana 27 in its turn and the postwar Webley Mk3 was a very clear copy of the prewar Diana 45. So there was a lot of toing and froing of design inspiration between the industrial (and miltary) rivals.

As for the 1950s Airsporter vs the contemporary Diana 50, I certainly see more advanced (ie. economical) steel pressing techniques used on the Diana. But both models were still essentially LJ-type tap loading underlevers and the BSA was probably more refined and elegant from an ownership point of view.

I think the Airsporter and 50 are two of the most elegant air rifles ever made but I have the 50 well ahead on refinement. And accuracy, consistency, trigger, sights. On the 60s/ 70s era examples of both that I have experience of anyway but maybe i have neen lucky with 50s and unlucky with Airsporters.
It's definitely true that stampings were beginning to replace castings on some of the Diana's components in that period but I didn't think the earlier 50s were over the top in that department.

[Garvin]

I think the Airsporter and 50 are two of the most elegant air rifles ever made but I have the 50 well ahead on refinement. And accuracy, consistency, trigger, sights. On the 60s/ 70s era examples of both that I have experience of anyway but maybe i have neen lucky with 50s and unlucky with Airsporters.
It's definitely true that stampings were beginning to replace castings on some of the Diana's components in that period but I didn't think the earlier 50s were over the top in that department.

It's true that the earliest Diana 50s only had a minimum of pressed steel parts, but overall I don't feel the Club/Mk1 Airsporter showed signs of economising like the German guns. Mainly they had a walnut stock while the Diana had a beech one with rather crude pressed chequering. The sights on the Diana - especially with the diopter attachment and dual function front sight - were superior in function to the Airsporter's basic prewar pillar sight, but this came at the price of introducing stamped parts. I suppose it depends on what you consider refinement - old school quality or modern performance!

It's interesting that soon after the War, long-lived M&G were showing signs of business acumen in terms of design innovations/keeping manufacturing costs down to keep profits up, while (short-lived) contemporary rivals (ie Falke) were carrying on with older school designs heavy on labour-intensive machined parts...

[Drew451]

It's true that the earliest Diana 50s only had a minimum of pressed steel parts, but overall I don't feel the Club/Mk1 Airsporter showed signs of economising like the German guns. Mainly they had a walnut stock while the Diana had a beech one with rather crude pressed chequering. The sights on the Diana - especially with the diopter attachment and dual function front sight - were superior in function to the Airsporter's basic prewar pillar sight, but this came at the price of introducing stamped parts. I suppose it depends on what you consider refinement - old school quality or modern performance!

It's interesting that soon after the War, long-lived M&G were showing signs of business acumen in terms of design innovations/keeping manufacturing costs down to keep profits up, while (short-lived) contemporary rivals (ie Falke) were carrying on with older school designs heavy on labour-intensive machined parts...

Again, the 50's contemporary to the abovementioned BSA's had cut chequering, sometimes sizeable and with elaborate edging. The pressed chequering came in with the pressed steel on later guns. Certainly, some early 50 and 35 stocks had the appearance of walnut but having owner neither from that period, I can only go on appearances.
I have no issues with the look or build of the early Airsporters, I just find the 50 a much better performer and they feel quite special in my opinion. So I'm leaning towards modern performance along with the good looks.

[Garvin]

Again, the 50's contemporary to the abovementioned BSA's had cut chequering, sometimes sizeable and with elaborate edging. The pressed chequering came in with the pressed steel on later guns. Certainly, some early 50 and 35 stocks had the appearance of walnut but having owner neither from that period, I can only go on appearances.
I have no issues with the look or build of the early Airsporters, I just find the 50 a much better performer and they feel quite special in my opinion. So I'm leaning towards modern performance along with the good looks.

Fair enough.

Not sure you're right about the early production Diana 50s having hand-cut chequering, although I'd be happy to be proved wrong. Chequering on all the examples I've seen pics of was extensive but pressed. While walnut stocks were certainly advertised as an option for the 35 and 50 range, I've never seen a rifle with a walnut stock - although a walnut stock on its own for a 50M did come up on eGun.de once.

[Lakey]

Fair enough.

Not sure you're right about the early production Diana 50s having hand-cut chequering, although I'd be happy to be proved wrong. Chequering on all the examples I've seen pics of was extensive but pressed. While walnut stocks were certainly advertised as an option for the 35 and 50 range, I've never seen a rifle with a walnut stock - although a walnut stock on its own for a 50M did come up on eGun.de once.

I have very recently bought an early Original Model 50 (date around late 50's early 60's) which I believe was called the Delux Model 50. That has extensive hand cut checkering, which is really attractive. I have shot it a few times at the range recently and it is a tack driver. I will take a few pictures and e-mail them to you later Danny. Lovely rifle, and quite a surprise to me that I wanted to buy it so badly, normally going for mostly english guns as I do. It was love at first sight, and that was mostly to do with the checkering.

Lakey

[Garvin]

I have very recently bought an early Original Model 50 (date around late 50's early 60's) which I believe was called the Delux Model 50. That has extensive hand cut checkering, which is really attractive. I have shot it a few times at the range recently and it is a tack driver. I will take a few pictures and e-mail them to you later Danny. Lovely rifle, and quite a surprise to me that I wanted to buy it so badly, normally going for mostly english guns as I do. It was love at first sight, and that was mostly to do with the checkering.

Lakey

Sounds great, Andy. Is the stock walnut? I suppose that when you have every British rifle ever made, the German rifles are a natural next step. (Only kidding ).