Air rifle Power limit amendment

[oliver13]

Don't want to hijack this thread but what would be the situation if you bought a new untampered with straight out of the box rifle from a registered dealer, fire less than 20 pellets through it and then put it away in the gun rack. Eventually get around to chronograph it 18 months later and it is doing 12.9ftlbs with AA Field. Now remember not everyone has access to a chronograph so it could have gone years if not all of it's life without being tried over a chrono, surely the purchaser cannot be held responsible?

If Forum posts are anything to go by this does occasionally happen, its best to get a chrono & be pretty paranoid about using it regularly. & don't assume heavy for PCP's & light for springers, I have occasionally found it's the other way around, which was a bit of a shock at the time.

[lensman57]

Before you joined the forum

http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....r-25-of-a-ftlb

Cheers Chris yes these guns are tested regular at the national comps at local clubs and even my own crombro so im sure i have done more than enough to keep them legal.
The Mk3 daystate was said to be doing 12.2 and the lg100 12.23 both were tested with poited waisted pellets from the testers own collection but he has served in the navy so he must know what he is talking about
I have heard it said that maybe we should all get our guns on ticket and i must say its starting to make sense to cover our backsides, we all are going to need cabinets anyway so a cost of £50 every 5 years might just save us in cases like this.
Also worth mentioning is find out if your club has legal assistance cover as if you ever need the assistance of a brief the insurance will pay, unfortunately my club does not have this and talking to Pete sparkes he now realises his club doesnt either but is going to sort that out on monday.When clubs apply for their insurance its just a tick on the box and you are covered ...simples..
Hopefully everyone should check their guns to see if they are under the limit and if you have an adjuster get it covered up, not that it will stop you getting nicked but will certainly help from doing so.
Thanks to those who have helped me out so far ... you know who you are.
Last edited by nibbley-uk; 10-04-2011 at 07:20 PM.



and an explanation as to why he was visited by the police
" The reason that i have not been able to shoot any competitions is because the police have seized my rifles due to an incident down my road over xmas where a 37 yr old claims he was injured by an airgun, i never did this but because i had confronted him i seem to be the one blamed for it."

The reason i confronted this person or persons at the time was that they came out of the pub at the end of my road and found it amusing to throw snowballs at everyones windows as they passed by.And because i had a 8 month old baby asleep upstairs i didnt want her woken up so i did confront them but i had nothing to do with him being injured, im not the only owner of an airgun down my street and was not the only one to have snowballs thrown at my windows.
And as already mentioned my guns are tested on a regular basis the Steyr is my comp gun and was tested more than 10 times last year so i think i have tried to keep them within the law dont you ?
The daystate is adjustable and so is the Steyr but as far as i knew up to that point as long as they are under 12ftlbs in your hands then they are legal i had never heard that the police could turn them up and certainly never would of believed they could take appart a perfectly legal gun and fit parts to make them illegal and hit you with law stating CAPEABLE so it will turn out even your guns when tested will come back overpower, NOW how does that make you feel.

Im not sure what the outcome was


And how they test rifles according to this two posts

Originally Posted by Raygun View Post
Hi Terry,
With your permission above please find the following:

4.2.1 Test procedure with pellet #1 (supplied by manufacturer)
Charge rifle with air to optimum fill pressure, plus 15bar (PCP only)
Allow cooling for 20 minutes (PCP only)
Top up to optimum fill pressure (PCP only)
Establish weight of pellet #1 weight from a selection of 30
Shoot a minimum of 20 pellets, recording the velocity and kinetic energy at a distance of no further than 50cm from the muzzle

4.2.2 Test procedure with pellet#2 (supplied by test centre)
Charge rifle with air to optimum fill pressure, plus 15bar (PCP only)
Allow cooling for 20 minutes (PCP only)
Top up to optimum fill pressure (PCP only)
Establish weight of pellet #2 weight from a selection of 30
Shoot a minimum of 20 pellets, recording the velocity and kinetic energy at a distance of no further than 50cm from the muzzle

4.2.3 Test procedure with pellet#3 (supplied by test centre)
Charge rifle with air to optimum fill pressure, plus 15bar (PCP only)
Allow cooling for 20 minutes (PCP only)
Top up to optimum fill pressure (PCP only)
Establish weight of pellet #3 weight from a selection of 30
Shoot a minimum of 20 pellets, recording the velocity and kinetic energy at a distance of no further than 50cm from the muzzle

After the completion of the muzzle energy test procedure, the model of rifle being tested will receive one of the following AMTA Test Centre evaluations, marked accordingly on the Pass/Fail Certificate.

Pass.
Granted to a model of air rifle which the Test Centre has established does not exceed the maximum permissible energy output level of 12 ft lbs.

Fail.
Granted to a model of air rifle which the Test Centre has established exceeds the maximum permissible energy output of 12 ft lbs.

The AMTA Test Centre will keep a record of the data recorded during the test for reference.

The above certainly appears to me to be a test for power. It is certainly better than what has been recently accepted by Luton Crown Court.
It is also a test that could be followed by airgunners.

If the manufacturers can use it to comply to the legislation about the supply of Section 1 Rifles it should be good enough to determine whether you are holding a Section1 rifle.


ATB
Ray.

Ray, you forgot to add that those tests take place over a £5000 chrono - called a Sabre, I believe, which has to be calibrated at regular intervals - within a temperature-controlled environment, and exists to establish under the most clinical and credible conditions the manufacturers could create at the Proof House, that a particular brand of air rifle is legal at the time of manufacture. Had you accepted the invitation to visit the Proof House, you'd have seen the setup for yourself.

There has to be a test and that test has to be an extremely clinical, but that test is only the confirmation part of the protocol and it is NOT a part of UK law. I repeat, it is NOT a part of UK law. Surely what went on in Luton proves that? Besides, how the hell is the average airgunner supposed to afford a five-grand chrono and a temperature-controlled room in which to use it? And how many would go through all three phases in the way described?

Finally, you didn't answer my question; if there really were an agreed testing procedure that airgunners could use, why on earth would I not be proclaiming it at every opportunity? Why wouldn't AMTA, the BASC and everyone else be urging airgunners to use this test as regularly as they could, to prove that the vast majority of us are responsible, law abiding shooters? I'd be absolutely hammering home that message to everyone I spoke to and everyone who reads the mags. I ask again - why wouldn't I?

Ray, for the last time, this is no dark secret between AMTA and the FSS. It's part of an industry protocol designed to show that we can regulate ourselves and that we don't need the Government to bring in restrictive legislation to regulate us, and that means all of us - airgunners of every kind.

Finally, if anyone is genuinely interested in all this, I'll be at Kelmarsh, the CLA Gamefair at Blenheim, and on the number in the mags most days.

I was always given the impression that if an airgun on test was found to be just over the limit then provided the anti tamper was not removed, the owner would get a caution and that the gun will have to be detuned if the rifle was to be returned to him. If the gun was found to be well over the limit then he will be charged with a section 1 offence. I would have imagined that for 12.2 ft.lbs gun a caution and a detune would have been in order but I know of no one in competition shooting who operates guns with AT still in place ( perhaps the owners of the FTP 900 are an exception ) as they constantly need to adjust the power. MY HW 100 and my BSA R10 have had their AT removed as both had crept up over the limit. The R10 in particular was suffering from the famous low pressure regulator spike and was firing the last half dozen pellets at around 14 ft.lbs before the reg went into a nose dive and so did the ME. AT might have its uses but it is also highly restrictive when it comes to maintenance of the gun.
As far as competition shooting goes I know of atleast one very famous and accomplished shooter whom I have shot with once, who has a reputation of going hot with his gun and prior to any comp now he needs to chrono the rifle to prove that his gun is legal.

A.G

[zephyr]

I have read over many years that heavier pellets give higher muzzle energy (ME). So I decided to take a set of measurements to see if this is fact or fiction.

I used different brand/type of the more common pellets for the experiment:
H+N FTT
H+N Barracuda Extreme
H+N Barracuda Match
RWS Super Hollow Point
RWS Super Field
Weihrauch F+TS (by H+N)
Bisley LRG (by ???)
Bisley Magnum (by H+N)
Daystate Rangemaster Li (by ???)
Daystate Sovereign (by JSB)
Accupell
Panther
JSB Exact Diablo
JSB Exact Heavy
JSB Exact Express
JSB Exact RS

I used two air rifles - Weihrauch 100T and Daystate Mk4is - and measured 10 shots with each pellet brand/type to be an average. I shot 30 pellets before 'topping' up the pressure; with both guns being regulated (in one form or other) I would suggest the variability of pressure has been minimised. I used a combro, meaning the measurement was taken at the same distance from the muzzle each time. The air temperature was around 2-4C, so little variation. I took the time to aim each shot, thereby allowing 'regulated' pressure to stabilise.

I wish I could attach a .pdf document (does anyone know how to?), but the summary is

Pellet Weight (gr):
H+N BM 10.65
Bisley Magnum 10.65
JSB Heavy 10.34
H+N BHE 9.57
Panther 9.20
H+N FTT 8.64
Weihrauch F+TS 8.64
Daystate Sovereign 8.44
JSB Exact 8.44
RWS SF 8.40
Daystate Li 7.90
Accupell 7.90
JSB Express 7.87
Bisley LRG 7.56
JSB RS 7.33
RWS SHP 6.90

Muzzle energy with Weihrauch 100T
Daystate Sovereign 11.03
JSB Express 10.86
JSB Exact 10.82
Bisley Magnum 10.75
RWS SF 10.72
H+N BM 10.61
JSB Heavy 10.60
H+N BHE 10.59
Panther 10.54
H+N FTT 10.47
JSB RS 10.43
Weihrauch F+TS 10.39
RWS SHP 10.30
Accupell 10.18
Daystate Li 10.15
Bisley LRG 10.02

Muzzle Energy with Daystate Mk4is
JSB Heavy 11.60
Daystate Sovereign 11.54
H+N BM 11.20
JSB Exact 11.11
H+N FTT 11.11
H+N BHE 10.97
JSB Express 10.91
Panther 10.87
Bisley Magnum 10.86
Weihrauch F+TS 10.72
RWS SF 10.50
Accupell 10.44
RWS SHP 10.21
Daystate Li 10.08
Bisley LRG 9.88
JSB RS No data


While the heavier pellets are up there in the ME tables, the data (with these two rifles) does not support "if you are under with the Bisley Mags you will be ok". Look at those Daystate Sovereign ME figures?

[lensman57]

I have read over many years that heavier pellets give higher muzzle energy (ME). So I decided to take a set of measurements to see if this is fact or fiction.

I used different brand/type of the more common pellets for the experiment:
H+N FTT
H+N Barracuda Extreme
H+N Barracuda Match
RWS Super Hollow Point
RWS Super Field
Weihrauch F+TS (by H+N)
Bisley LRG (by ???)
Bisley Magnum (by H+N)
Daystate Rangemaster Li (by ???)
Daystate Sovereign (by JSB)
Accupell
Panther
JSB Exact Diablo
JSB Exact Heavy
JSB Exact Express
JSB Exact RS

I used two air rifles - Weihrauch 100T and Daystate Mk4is - and measured 10 shots with each pellet brand/type to be an average. I shot 30 pellets before 'topping' up the pressure; with both guns being regulated (in one form or other) I would suggest the variability of pressure has been minimised. I used a combro, meaning the measurement was taken at the same distance from the muzzle each time. The air temperature was around 2-4C, so little variation. I took the time to aim each shot, thereby allowing 'regulated' pressure to stabilise.

I wish I could attach a .pdf document (does anyone know how to?), but the summary is

Pellet Weight (gr):
H+N BM 10.65
Bisley Magnum 10.65
JSB Heavy 10.34
H+N BHE 9.57
Panther 9.20
H+N FTT 8.64
Weihrauch F+TS 8.64
Daystate Sovereign 8.44
JSB Exact 8.44
RWS SF 8.40
Daystate Li 7.90
Accupell 7.90
JSB Express 7.87
Bisley LRG 7.56
JSB RS 7.33
RWS SHP 6.90

Muzzle energy with Weihrauch 100T
Daystate Sovereign 11.03
JSB Express 10.86
JSB Exact 10.82
Bisley Magnum 10.75
RWS SF 10.72
H+N BM 10.61
JSB Heavy 10.60
H+N BHE 10.59
Panther 10.54
H+N FTT 10.47
JSB RS 10.43
Weihrauch F+TS 10.39
RWS SHP 10.30
Accupell 10.18
Daystate Li 10.15
Bisley LRG 10.02

Muzzle Energy with Daystate Mk4is
JSB Heavy 11.60
Daystate Sovereign 11.54
H+N BM 11.20
JSB Exact 11.11
H+N FTT 11.11
H+N BHE 10.97
JSB Express 10.91
Panther 10.87
Bisley Magnum 10.86
Weihrauch F+TS 10.72
RWS SF 10.50
Accupell 10.44
RWS SHP 10.21
Daystate Li 10.08
Bisley LRG 9.88
JSB RS No data


While the heavier pellets are up there in the ME tables, the data (with these two rifles) does not support "if you are under with the Bisley Mags you will be ok". Look at those Daystate Sovereign ME figures?

Thank you for taking the trouble of posting the extensive results of your pellet V ME tests. Unfortunately there is much more to how a gun, a PCP in particular, responds to pellet weight. Many factors are involved, including the length of the barrel, the regulator pressure, the alloy from which the pellet was manufactured amongst many other less prominent factors.
One of the most important factors is the length of the barrel V REG pressure. Without going very deeply into the whys of it, a short carbine barrel needs higher REG pressure to make the same power as a full length barrel with lower REG pressure. It is this that dictates the increase of ME with heavier pellets such as JSB heavies in short/carbine barrels. In simple terms it is not that the heavier pellet makes more power but that the lighter pellets are less efficient.
Currently my HW 100 ( originally a KT ) has a 56cm FSB barrel and having done quite a lot of adjustments to the REG pressure V Hammer Preload the gun is nearly consistent in power between JSB Exact 8.44 grs, JSB Exact Express 7.89 grs and JSB Heavy 10.35 grs.
When the carbine barrel on and with the ReG pressure set to 96 bars the JSB Heavies made 0.6 ft.lbs more power than the 8.44 Exacts.
As with the H&N pellets and their rebadged versions none of my PCPs have made as much power as the JSBs ( H&N use a much harder alloy and the head sizes are larger than the JSBs causing power loss due to increase in friction to one extent or the other ) and I have 5 deiffernt PCPs from different manufacturers. Your results with the MKIV confirms what I have written above as the MKIV shrouded barrel is only just over a carbine length.
In order to make sure that a gun is kept within legal limits extended pellet testing need to done untill that day that common sense prevails and the word ' capable ' is taken out of air weapons act.

Kind Regards,

A.G

[Rog5]

Anti tamper is neither here or there, if you are over 12ftlb it's a section one, the rifle is yours from the minute you leave the shop, any shop that sells airrifles should have a chrono, the onus is on you to keep it legal, always best to buy your own, combro's are pretty cheap, far cheaper than a large fine, and possibly time inside. Rog

[JLB]

There certainly seems a government agenda to have all us peasants disarmed, including & up to pointy sticks. We are all too stupid to be trusted with anything. No solid food anyone, god forbid they let us have knives & forks in the future.


John

[lensman57]

There certainly seems a government agenda to have all us peasants disarmed, including & up to pointy sticks. We are all too stupid to be trusted with anything. No solid food anyone, god forbid they let us have knives & forks in the future.


John

That certainly was the policy after the servicemen returned from the great war. Too many battle hardened young men with extensive firearms experience was always a worrying thought for the establishment.

A.G

[keithy]

I have found that rifles with decent regulators such as wildcats, and hw100 only increased by less than half a foot pound with heavy pellets. However my air arms s510 and BSA r10 increased massively.

[angrybear]

I once had a sub 12 returned to me form the importer/manufacturer following a service/repair with the (signed) chrono test printout proclaiming an average of 12.06fpe

[danco1987]

My friends rifle owned from new - was recently sent of for a service , it returned with a chrono slip giving its output power and a list of parts replaced & returned to him by an RFD

He put it over his chronograph using the above pellets and found it to be slightly over , so he returned it asking it to be rectified , This time the service center performed a 50 shot chrono test and supplied a print out stating it to be within legal limits , once again it was returned to him ,it was then tested again with the above pellets.

Guess what, still over, he then checked it with a second chronograph which also confirmed it as slightly over.

So where does he stand now the test center is saying everything is fine and there is no issue, two other chrono's say not (this is only with JSB jumbo monster) , the gun is fully anti tampered - he's not a gun smith and has tried his best to stay legal.

I would add that those pellets at 25.39gn are way outside the range of normal pellets and really only suitable for FAC rifles, but the fact remains they are putting his otherwise perfectly legal & certified rifle over (it read legal with every other pellet tested including bisley magnums)

Get the anti tamper removed so he can stay in control going forward. Set it around 11fpe with bisley magnums, throw away the FAC pellets and tell him to go forward and enjoy his hobby.

In the extremely unlikely event that your friend has his rifle confiscated (which wouldn't happen whilst going about his lawful business), there is no way the Police and CPS would pursue a prosecution in those circumstances. It would be madness, a waste of time and not in the public interest.

[rabbitslayer]

Firearms - CPS

"An air rifle is "specially dangerous" if it is capable of discharging a missile so that the missile has, on being discharged from the muzzle of the weapon, kinetic energy in excess in the case of a pistol of 6 ft lbs or, in the case of an air weapon other than an air pistol, 12 ft lbs"

EXPLANATORY NOTE
Under section 1 of the Firearms Act 1968, a firearm certificate is required for any air weapon declared by rules to be specially dangerous.

Because the term 'CAPABLE' is used, it makes the whole subject nothing but bloody laughable. MOST if not all 'brand new' and 'untouched' air rifles both PCP's and springers are CAPABLE of exceeding the 12 ft Lbs max UK limit... so according to the above that means RFD's are selling "specially dangerous" firearms to the unlicensed!

Most of us know that removing AT's is not the only way to increase ME. The fact that airguns are still supplied with adjustable port restricters and that those with AT's can be easily removed / replaced as well as a whole host of other easy and plentiful ME increasing methods, all mean they are SOLD as 'CAPABLE' and therefore already illegal?

It's total tosh and is nothing but another 'clear as mud' tool they can use 'if' they need to.

Hello, hello, hello, Sir... What have we here then?.. Ah, a HW80 hey? - Yes Sir, it's only producing 11.2 ft Lbs, but wait... what's that in your first aid kit?... vaseline?... Hmmm nasty, nasty stuff!

[bozzer]

Hello, hello, hello, Sir... What have we here then?.. Ah, a HW80 hey? - Yes Sir, it's only producing 11.2 ft Lbs, but wait... what's that in your first aid kit?... vaseline?... Hmmm nasty, nasty stuff!

Are you suggesting that the Vaseline will be used by the policeman to coat the shooter's pellets to deliberately take the rifle over the limit ... or that the policeman wanted to confiscate that too, so that the shooter couldn't use it to ease the torture of his chocolate tea towel holder, during the many romantic nights with Leroy, after he's been incarcerated for 25 years, because the police have decided they have nowt better to do than to 'fix' his HW80 so it's doing 12.3fp?

[krisko]

If you fill Helium in the PCP it will exceed the limit, I read in the US it gives 30% more power, so shall we run our anemic pcps at 8fpe because of that? There is no AT which would help, make a difference in that. Practically all PCPs will exceed the limit with that certain fill. Probably they will also fail,break soon after

[rabbitslayer]

Are you suggesting that the Vaseline will be used by the policeman to coat the shooter's pellets to deliberately take the rifle over the limit ... or that the policeman wanted to confiscate that too, so that the shooter couldn't use it to ease the torture of his chocolate tea towel holder, during the many romantic nights with Leroy, after he's been incarcerated for 25 years, because the police have decided they have nowt better to do than to 'fix' his HW80 so it's doing 12.3fp?

I'm guessing by the level of detail you've gone into, you've had bitter experience with Leroy?.. Let it go... But anyway...

They wouldn't need to 'fix' the HW80 because it's already 'capable' of exceeding the UK limit in it's standard form.. That's my point!..The word 'capable' casts too wide a net.

An air rifle can be tested and be below the 12 ft lbs limit but because it 'can' achieve higher powers, it's capable and therefore 'Specially Dangerous'. I might be wrong but for example: you have a PCP and you want to tune it for best efficiency so you remove the AT and replace it with an adjustable port restrictor and set the power to 9.5 ft lbs. They test your set up and it's way below and so OK, but then they adjust the port setting and bingo! 13 ft lbs. So it's 'capable' and becomes an unregistered FAC rated rifle. What happens then?..

I very much doubt the Police would waste their time messing with lubes (except probably, where Leroy's involved), but again, my point is that some users would and do (check youtube), and so their air rifles are capable, and DO perform at FAC levels. So where do you draw the line? You can't say some airguns are capable of exceeding the limit but are OK, and then lock up some poor home tuner trying to get the best out of his set up.

The reason I used the HW80 as an example was because a lot of post on here refer to AT's being removed etc. I was / am trying to point out that there are loads of EASY ways to increase power on all types of compressed air weapons and so most are 'CAPABLE' of exceeding 12 ft lbs. So, on that basis, according to the law, they're all 'Specially Dangerous'.

I think it's likely we'll follow the Scots on airgun licensing because of this

[peterd8877]

In N.I. all guns over 1 Joule are on ticket so no worries about going over power and the system works very well.