Guns easy to overlook that as a collector you need to try once

[Drew451]

I agree they are easy to overlook.

But they just aren’t quite as good as you’d expect an Anschutz to be.

They lack the uncanny accuracy and superb handling of the FWB Sport.

They have an annoying habit of breaking the welds on the cylinder lugs. I have one lying around that did that, and a replacement cylinder with intact welds, and at some point in the next decade I must build a rifle from them that works.

The trigger I think is OK, but not as special as you’d expect.

And the internals are finished more at the BSA/M&G level than a higher one.

They’re not bad, just a bit underwhelming given the brand.

The Worcester Black Powder Supplies Marauder of 1984-85, a custom stocked, tuned, 335 was one of the best though least well-known custom springers in the hey day of the classic custom springer.

Mr Geezer, sir: you are BSA/M&G- ing it again. I can see the 335/Meteor rolled steel piston connection but I don't think the competing Diana's of the time should be lobbed in there amongst the mediocre or even average in terms of internals.

Yes, stocks and fittings became a bit lower rent into the 70s but the standard of internal design and execution was always very good in my book.

Apart from the old Walthers, Im not sure what was markedly better in those days.

[Geezer]

Mr Geezer, sir: you are BSA/M&G- ing it again. I can see the 335/Meteor rolled steel piston connection but I don't think the competing Diana's of the time should be lobbed in there amongst the mediocre or even average in terms of internals.

Yes, stocks and fittings became a bit lower rent into the 70s but the standard of internal design and execution was always very good in my book.

Apart from the old Walthers, Im not sure what was markedly better in those days.

Oh all right, you are correct. The point I was trying to make was (a) BSA and Diana were similarly priced in the market, with HW and even Webley a bit above; (b) 70s Dianas had a lot of cost-cutting, but in the least bad places like stock finish, trigger guards, plastic - bit still good - rear sights. The internals and trigger indeed remained very good.

And, above all, that if you open up a FWB Sport, it is made to a very high standard,,despite its design flaws. The Annie isn’t. As you say, it basically has a BSA Meteor level piston in what should have been a very high quality gun. If it didn’t have a very good barrel on it, it’s essentially a German Webley Vulcan.

But, to return to the original post, a 335 is well worth experiencing.

[Garvin]

Not to interfere in the above discussion (which is a bit above my pay grade) but it seems to me that all airgun manufacturers in the 1970s came under the same pressure (temptation?) to cut costs/corners and different companies reached different conclusions as to what exactly could withstand these economies.

As far as I can see, only Weihrauch pretty much resisted this pressure altogether and even kept a walnut stock option (35E) throughout.

[jonnyone]

Oh all right, you are correct. The point I was trying to make was (a) BSA and Diana were similarly priced in the market, with HW and even Webley a bit above; (b) 70s Dianas had a lot of cost-cutting, but in the least bad places like stock finish, trigger guards, plastic - bit still good - rear sights. The internals and trigger indeed remained very good.

And, above all, that if you open up a FWB Sport, it is made to a very high standard,,despite its design flaws. The Annie isn’t. As you say, it basically has a BSA Meteor level piston in what should have been a very high quality gun. If it didn’t have a very good barrel on it, it’s essentially a German Webley Vulcan.

But, to return to the original post, a 335 is well worth experiencing.

Concur with your summary Geezer. Both the FWB Sport and 335 have a blend of good n bad. But of the two the 335 tips the balance in favour of bad but still comes out a good gun.
Actual internal compression tube finish on both guns is good. With the Sport just pipping the 335 ( incidentally both of them pipping Diana). However, though I've not experienced out of round cylinders on my 335s I've heard tell the name stamping can result in this on the 335. We all know of the cheddar cheese Sport seals, but Anschutz like Diana had a rush of blood and kept leather seals when all and sundry had ditched it and moved on. The Annie pistons must come as a shock to all who have ventured inside them for the first time. What the hell was going on there???? A transfer port on the Annie you can near poke a finger through, and a trigger that gives less than it should do (but is still passable in my book).
The cylinder lugs? I was nearby when the cylinder nigh on broke the jaw of a mate as it parted company with the tube.
However. Despite all, it has, as you rightly say, a barrel that many aspire to. Back when I put in many many more hours shooting than I do now I achieved accuracy with this gun that I can only dream of these days. Such a peculiar mix of good and bad that ultimately result in something not that shabby. And yep- I too lusted after the WBPS marauder. I bet examples are in single figures.
What about future classics then? I'll suggest one. Diana Airking. Well built, extremely accurate and as a rare commodity- semi recoiless. Besides most youngsters are down the gym these days and will cope with the weight in the future
Dave

[Drew451]

Not to interfere in the above discussion (which is a bit above my pay grade) but it seems to me that all airgun manufacturers in the 1970s came under the same pressure (temptation?) to cut costs/corners and different companies reached different conclusions as to what exactly could withstand these economies.

As far as I can see, only Weihrauch pretty much resisted this pressure altogether and even kept a walnut stock option (35E) throughout.

Yes, Weihrauch remained very good for a long time. Good stocks with walnut options, good checkering, cast parts/ fittings.
What the 70s did give us was absolutely top notch match rifles, from many manufacturers, with which no expense was spared. Especially the engineering that went into their recoil suppression systems.

[MDriskill]

Very interesting discussion. For the record, I loved the 335 I had. Nice looking, shot great, and I never heard of one exploding its welds!

Oh well...it fulfilled the criteria of "interesting" and "overlooked" at least.

[MDriskill]

A rather humble gun I like, and consider collectible, is the Weihrauch HW 50. As mentioned earlier for the Diana 35, it's one of those "in-betweeners" that we tend to forget about.

Collectors seem to go for its close cousins - the HW 55 target rifle, and the big HW 35. But the HW 50 was Weihrauch's foundational first post-war air rifle, and shares most of the solid construction details of those two. For me at least, it's also one of the most perfectly sized and best-balanced rifles I've ever used, one of my very favorites to shoot.

The 50 was manufactured for almost 50 years, with many iterations, if one is into collecting variants: short and long rear receiver section, several different trigger designs, many variations of woodwork, sights, and other action details.

[Geezer]

A rather humble gun I like, and consider collectible, is the Weihrauch HW 50. As mentioned earlier for the Diana 35, it's one of those "in-betweeners" that we tend to forget about.

Collectors seem to go for its close cousins - the HW 55 target rifle, and the big HW 35. But the HW 50 was Weihrauch's foundational first post-war air rifle, and shares most of the solid construction details of those two. For me at least, it's also one of the most perfectly sized and best-balanced rifles I've ever used, one of my very favorites to shoot.

The 50 was manufactured for almost 50 years, with many iterations, if one is into collecting variants: short and long rear receiver section, several different trigger designs, many variations of woodwork, sights, and other action details.

Can’t disagree with that. Most of the intermediate/youth guns get overlooked (except to some extent for the cult of the Diana 27, of which I am a paid-up member; and, over here, nostalgia for Cadets, Cadet Majors and Meteors).

The Diana 23 and 25, esp the 25D and DS, are very good; the smaller BSFs are well worth a look; and the medium-size British Dianas, the Webleys based on them, and the Webley Falcon are all quite nice too.

Maybe some of the better Cometas, or the Predom 187/188?

[Mach 1.5]

My friend has a 335 by these guys. And besides the CS500 stock on it they really are nothing to write home about. Yes it's mint and hardly used but my theoben Zephyr 335, yes they did do them, was FAR better. No wonder Airmasters and Venom ruled the 80s tuning scene as they was head and shoulders above anyone else back then. Mach 1.5

[Drew451]

When browsing this and similar threads, I always ponder how many HW 50's, Diana Models 26, 27, 35, 50, Anschutz 333/5 's etc etc remained unbuilt due to the fact they didn't produce 11.9fpe in those power crazed days.
Due to this, most of these are a bit thin on the ground or even almost non existent to the collector. At least in the UK.

[Geezer]

When browsing this and similar threads, I always ponder how many HW 50's, Diana Models 26, 27, 35, 50, Anschutz 333/5 's etc etc remained unbuilt due to the fact they didn't produce 11.9fpe in those power crazed days.
Due to this, most of these are a bit thin on the ground or even almost non existent to the collector. At least in the UK.

I think the 35s and 50s are pretty common, probably because we didn’t know back then that they weren’t 11+ ft-lbs rifles.

See also: BSA Airsporter, Webley Tracker/Viscount (Webley’s velocity figures for the latter were honest and a touch below what they quoted for the Vulcan, but you had to look quite hard to find them).

[Drew451]

I think the 35s and 50s are pretty common, probably because we didn’t know back then that they weren’t 11+ ft-lbs rifles.

See also: BSA Airsporter, Webley Tracker/Viscount (Webley’s velocity figures for the latter were honest and a touch below what they quoted for the Vulcan, but you had to look quite hard to find them).

You're right, certainly regarding the amount of 50's in circulation but I do think that when Airgun World started testing the 800fps "magnum springers" the game was up for the 35 , 50 and others. In the case of these two, its rare to see one dated after 1978.

[Geezer]

You're right, certainly regarding the amount of 50's in circulation but I do think that when Airgun World started testing the 800fps "magnum springers" the game was up for the 35 , 50 and others. In the case of these two, its rare to see one dated after 1978.

Agree.

Pricing is always instructive.

By the late 70s-mid 80s, not only did the 35 look and feel old, it was selling at almost exactly the same price as the HW35 and the Webley Vulcan (and more than a basic BSA Mercury), and, from 1978, it was overshadowed in the M&G line by the new, sexy, 45, which was also competitively priced against the best of the other German makes.

The 50 also looked and felt old, and tended to be priced above the popular break-barrels, a legacy from earlier years when fixed-barrels commanded a premium. Why would you have paid as much for a 50 as for an FWB Sport, or more than an HW35E/L or 80? And if you wanted a fixed-barrel, the Airsporter S was cheaper and the patriotic choice…

There was a ridiculous point in 84-85 where the 50T01 (hybrid 45/50 - interesting call whether it combined the best of both, or the worst) was offered for something like a third more than the new HW77. No wonder they are rare.

[Drew451]

Agree.

Pricing is always instructive.

By the late 70s-mid 80s, not only did the 35 look and feel old, it was selling at almost exactly the same price as the HW35 and the Webley Vulcan (and more than a basic BSA Mercury), and, from 1978, it was overshadowed in the M&G line by the new, sexy, 45, which was also competitively priced against the best of the other German makes.

The 50 also looked and felt old, and tended to be priced above the popular break-barrels, a legacy from earlier years when fixed-barrels commanded a premium. Why would you have paid as much for a 50 as for an FWB Sport, or more than an HW35E/L or 80? And if you wanted a fixed-barrel, the Airsporter S was cheaper and the patriotic choice…

There was a ridiculous point in 84-85 where the 50T01 (hybrid 45/50 - interesting call whether it combined the best of both, or the worst) was offered for something like a third more than the new HW77. No wonder they are rare.

Good point. Im forgetting the effect pricing had. However, I do recall from an old price list from around 1980 that the 50 was priced fairly close to the 60/66. When you factor in all the parts and cylinder bulges that made the 45 an expensive gun to make then 50T01 was really up against it, even before the 77 arrived.