and they all shout "why buy a gun from europe"

[Blackmax]

To add to Rob's most recent thread, Home Office Guidelines and circulars cannot and will not ever supersede legislation even if there are errors, loop holes or grey areas in the law. What it does do is open it up to legal challenge should there be a prosecution and even a blanket policy decision not to prosecute by the cps or other legal bodies.

The only thing that can change the law is new legislation, amendment or a stated case and for the latter it would require a case being heard in a criminal court, which is highly unlikely due to the stance of the CPS and ACPO.

It appears from correspondence to do with the legislation that it was never intended to apply to airguns under the legal limit, but it does, are there likely to be any prosecutions for possession of such a rifle, no.
The reason there won't be a prosecution is because the CPS will not support it and neither will the Association of Chief Police Officers; this does not prevent the seizure and destruction of a such gun at this current time.

One thing I think we can all agree on is that this anomaly or whatever you wish to call it needs clarification.

[Garvin]

To add to Rob's most recent thread, Home Office Guidelines and circulars cannot and will not ever supersede legislation even if there are errors, loop holes or grey areas in the law. What it does do is open it up to legal challenge should there be a prosecution and even a blanket policy decision not to prosecute by the cps or other legal bodies.

The only thing that can change the law is new legislation, amendment or a stated case and for the latter it would require a case being heard in a criminal court, which is highly unlikely due to the stance of the CPS and ACPO.

It appears from correspondence to do with the legislation that it was never intended to apply to airguns under the legal limit, but it does, are there likely to be any prosecutions for possession of such a rifle, no.
The reason there won't be a prosecution is because the CPS will not support it and neither will the Association of Chief Police Officers; this does not prevent the seizure and destruction of a such gun at this current time.

One thing I think we can all agree on is that this anomaly or whatever you wish to call it needs clarification.

Not really wanting to get involved in this thread... but... I think this post gets to the nub of the issue. If legislation is poorly worded or open to question, it's for the courts to decide on the correct interpretation. If the Home Office changes its view on a given question, this may be persuasiave in court, but it has to get to court first. For the reasons set out above, this is unlikely at present.

[Logunner]

The trade body works for it's members, a union if you like... The press works for whom ever pays the highest price... Both will 'spin' to achieve it's own ends and the consumer be damned!

Vote with your wallets, pressure your MP on any shooting related topic that concerns you, protect the freedom of choice when it comes to being a consumer or a shooting enthusiast. SA and buying from Europe are intrinsicly linked, any restriction could set a dangerous precedent in many other areas of both shooting and consumer rights.

The industry should hang it's head in shame for the way it has treated the consumers, and if any RFD feels the GTA has let them down, or no longer truly represents them, then stand up and say so.

[Terry D]

The industry should hang it's head in shame for the way it has treated the consumers, and if any RFD feels the GTA has let them down, or no longer truly represents them, then stand up and say so.

So, exactly what has the 'industry' or the GTA done wrong, here? Please stick to the facts, not your supposition and conjecture, and let's see the charges.

[Logunner]

So, exactly what has the 'industry' or the GTA done wrong, here? Please stick to the facts, not your supposition and conjecture, and let's see the charges.

Simple!

It rips off it's customers, treats them like an inconvenience, and has done for years. The availability of items from Europe at such reduced prices, including UK produced items, is clear evidence of the facts. The GTA represents the industry, you work out the connection...

To be honest I'm tired of your 'GTA might is right' songbook, to my mind it has overtures of the miners, dockers, BL workers and look how well that ended. Virtually extinct now..... Just in case you missed the world moving on.

[Terry D]

Simple!

It rips off it's customers, treats them like an inconvenience, and has done for years.

How specifically has 'the industry' done this? In previous correspondence, you have claimed that the UK airgun industry doesn't have the financial will to develop new guns, so it's trying to ban SA guns from overseas. You have no basis of any kind for this claim, and the constant development of new UK based guns makes a total nonsense of it, but you never let the facts get in the way of your nonsense theories, do you?

To be honest I'm tired of your 'GTA might is right' songbook, to my mind it has overtures of the miners, dockers, BL workers and look how well that ended. Virtually extinct now..... Just in case you missed the world moving on.

See? Pure nonsense yet again. When have I ever said 'GTA might is right'? Not once, not ever. Never. 'Overtures of the miners ...'? Dear oh dear.

[Mog]

Originally Posted by Logunner Simple!

It rips off it's customers, treats them like an inconvenience, and has done for years.

How specifically has 'the industry' done this? In previous correspondence, you have claimed that the UK airgun industry doesn't have the financial will to develop new guns, so it's trying to ban SA guns from overseas. You have no basis of any kind for this claim, and the constant development of new UK based guns makes a total nonsense of it, but you never let the facts get in the way of your nonsense theories, do you?

To be honest I'm tired of your 'GTA might is right' songbook, to my mind it has overtures of the miners, dockers, BL workers and look how well that ended. Virtually extinct now..... Just in case you missed the world moving on.See? Pure nonsense yet again. When have I ever said 'GTA might is right'? Not once, not ever. Never. 'Overtures of the miners ...'? Dear oh dear.

Come, come, Terry, surely nobody believes that the GTA or AMTA are happy with their UK members/retailers losing income because people are saving money by buying from the continent, whether SA or not?

[Logunner]

See? Pure nonsense yet again. When have I ever said 'GTA might is right'? Not once, not ever. Never. 'Overtures of the miners ...'? Dear oh dear.

Tell me where I have posted that you "said" 'GTA might is right'? Read the post, try and understand the post and then let me know if you still think I posted tbat you "said"

Yes, dear oh dear.... 'Might is right' that i what killed the mining industry and the town I live in.

[neil82]

So, exactly what has the 'industry' or the GTA done wrong, here? Please stick to the facts, not your supposition and conjecture, and let's see the charges.

i`ll give you a few undeniable facts on how we are poorly treated
fact
guns are leaving factories with the power all over the place due to poor quality control
fact
even though no one from the home office has ever backed it up, the GTA and AMTA insist a/t had to be fitted
(why only the UK, we are not the only market with power restrictions)
fact
if (as in the case with every new gun i`ve bought) its way under power for whats marketed as a full power hunting gun its miss-sold, and hiding behind a so called running/bedding in period does not account for them (in my case) being between 40-50% under
fact
if its over, its the poor punter who gets done, no defence as its an absolute offence, criminal record, possible ban from further airgun ownership, and the manufacturer/seller is totally in the clear, this situation is wrong

[Terry D]

i`ll give you a few undeniable facts on how we are poorly treated
fact
guns are leaving factories with the power all over the place due to poor quality control
fact

Are they? Then complain to those factories and demand good quality control. It's your right.

even though no one from the home office has ever backed it up, the GTA and AMTA insist a/t had to be fitted

Wrong. They say it was necessary, and it was. PM me a contact number and I'll explain why.

if (as in the case with every new gun i`ve bought) its way under power for whats marketed as a full power hunting gun its miss-sold, and hiding behind a so called running/bedding in period does not account for them (in my case) being between 40-50% under

I've not heard from readers or BBS members about guns being 40-50% under-powered, but again, if every new gun you've bought is like this, there's obviously a problem somewhere. Again, I'd be contacting the manufacturer, because if this really was typical throughout the industry, I'd be inundated with complaints about it.

fact
if its over, its the poor punter who gets done, no defence as its an absolute offence, criminal record, possible ban from further airgun ownership, and the manufacturer/seller is totally in the clear, this situation is wrong

Again, give me a contact number and I'll explain to you how this works in the real world. I think it will interest you.

[neil82]

Again, give me a contact number and I'll explain to you how this works in the real world. I think it will interest you.

if the explanation is so clear as to why a/t is fitted then get it out into the open so we can ALL understand it, hiding behind closed doors and only personal conversations causes only mistrust, and if there is any defence someone can use IF they are in possession of an over powered gun with intact a/t then all should hear it

[Logunner]

Again, give me a contact number and I'll explain to you how this works in the real world. I think it will interest you.

Why does it have to be behind closed doors? If it affects all air gunners why can it not be made public? Just a question, not an accusation....

[neil82]

To add to Rob's most recent thread, Home Office Guidelines and circulars cannot and will not ever supersede legislation even if there are errors, loop holes or grey areas in the law. What it does do is open it up to legal challenge should there be a prosecution and even a blanket policy decision not to prosecute by the cps or other legal bodies.

The only thing that can change the law is new legislation, amendment or a stated case and for the latter it would require a case being heard in a criminal court, which is highly unlikely due to the stance of the CPS and ACPO.

It appears from correspondence to do with the legislation that it was never intended to apply to airguns under the legal limit, but it does, are there likely to be any prosecutions for possession of such a rifle, no.
The reason there won't be a prosecution is because the CPS will not support it and neither will the Association of Chief Police Officers; this does not prevent the seizure and destruction of a such gun at this current time.

One thing I think we can all agree on is that this anomaly or whatever you wish to call it needs clarification.

that last line just about sums up what they ALL should be doing, GTA, AMTA, BASC and the magazines, all forums, all members of forums ALL should push for clear guidance and a standard test
all threads of this type do nothing but stir up a hornets nest and create animosity as every one thinks only they have the correct answer

[Terry D]

that last line just about sums up what they ALL should be doing, GTA, AMTA, BASC and the magazines, all forums, all members of forums ALL should push for clear guidance and a standard test
all threads of this type do nothing but stir up a hornets nest and create animosity as every one thinks only they have the correct answer

Yet, when the GTA asked for clarification, certain people on here attacked them for doing just that.

Sometimes you just can't win, eh?

[Mog]

IMHO, All this affair has achieved is to have muddied the waters. It really doesn't matter about the legalities, we are now at a point where probably many people who had been considering ordering an airgun, not available from UK retailers, direct from the EU, are now not going to do so, due to a real or imagined belief that they are doing something illegal. Job done. I wouldn't think that the GTA, it's members or AMTA are loosing much sleep over this outcome.
Since living in France it's really brought it home to me how we're ripped off in the UK.