.20 calibre

[angrybear]

I don't doubt what you say.
Theoben went bust.
Gun shops still sell shed loads of .22 rifles because many still think air rifles aren't much cop outside the farmyard. Oh how things have moved forward.
Bottom line is the .20 struggles in the market place. Every few years someone tries to get a bit of traction and for the calibre to pick up. It never has in the UK. Shame really.

Theoben going bust was nothing to do with the rifles, an article at the time reported (allegedly) iffy dealings linking their collapse with the setting up of RAW USA.

.20 struggles in the market place because you can't walk in to a dealer & buy one put rifles on the shelf at the same price as the other cal's & they will sell.

It's exactly the same argument I had with BSA's marketing director about .25cal back in 2010.

[gsxrman]

Its all about trends is why .2 doesn't sell in the numbers and therefore push for development etc.
Someone wins the worlds or Euros with a Datstate, sales of Daystates go up, same with Steyr. Massive mag scopes 40-60x like looking through a milk bottle.
I remember (former World FT Champion) shooting and winning with lots of different kit and ammo because he was sponsored to rather than it being the best.
If you want sales and popularity of .2 to increase, one of you .2 enthusiasts need to go out and win something significant with the calibre than people sit up and listen.

Disagree that .2 is best in springer either, the difference in recoil between calibres is negligible even between .177 and .22. Proper rifles mind like the TX, 77 etc and not toy ones like 99.
I shot thousands of Rabbits, Rooks, squirrels etc with springers and rammers of both calibres with no difference if shot placement was correct.

Shot placement is much more easily achieved consistently with .177 over varying ranges than other calibres and has more than enough power retention to end airgun quarry.

Too many squirrels with brains hanging out to say .177 isn't good enough. YES that has to be shot placement, skimming a skull and opening it is a miss, driving a pellet through the brain is clinical.
I have shot countless rats, squirrels, pigeons, rooks and rabbits with .177 and varied pellets from Bisley Mag to now and for years I have only shot Premiers in 7.9. Their BC is excellent and are superbly accurate.
Shot placement is absolute at sub 12, end of, period.

[TonyL]

But, the REAL question, the one on everyone's lips is........

"WHAT'S BEST.......177 OR .22?"

[TonyL]

Theoben going bust was nothing to do with the rifles, an article at the time reported (allegedly) iffy dealings linking their collapse with the setting up of RAW USA.

.20 struggles in the market place because you can't walk in to a dealer & buy one put rifles on the shelf at the same price as the other cal's & they will sell.

It's exactly the same argument I had with BSA's marketing director about .25cal back in 2010.

Yep. And, in many cases a rifle might be bought after much deliberation, study and planning. But I'm convinced that a fair few would be "impulse buys", so, if one was available on the day of visit to a shop and offered, I'm sure many more would be sold.

[gsxrman]

But, the REAL question, the one on everyone's lips is........

"WHAT'S BEST.......177 OR .22?"

You would have to.....
Ha
Easier to load single shot rifle ...... .22
Easier to load magazines .... .22
Everything thing else . .177

[angrybear]

Its all about trends is why .2 doesn't sell in the numbers and therefore push for development etc.
Someone wins the worlds or Euros with a Datstate, sales of Daystates go up, same with Steyr. Massive mag scopes 40-60x like looking through a milk bottle.
I remember (former World FT Champion) shooting and winning with lots of different kit and ammo because he was sponsored to rather than it being the best.
If you want sales and popularity of .2 to increase, one of you .2 enthusiasts need to go out and win something significant with the calibre than people sit up and listen.

Well I'm not going to say that's utter rubbish, because there's bound to be someone who does just that,
But those people who shoot HFT/FT tend to think that they're the be all & end all of airgun shooting...sorry chaps you aren't
I bet 90% of airgun shooters neither know, or particularly care who wins/won what with which rifle or scope, & even less give it any thought when buying.

.20 is a HUNTING calibre not a competition calibre.

[Muskett]

And hunting traditionally was within the farmyard, well within farmyard ranges. Even a .22 can do that, and why so many were sold.
Only with scopes and tuned rifles did people start taking longer shots, and the merit of the flatter trajectory of the .177 became obvious.
PCPs and better pellets have improved first shot perfect shot placement probabilities. Possibly added 10m to the equation.

Only shot placement counts for instant results.

Go FAC and everything changes.

Enjoy all four calibres and the headaches they bring. There is a hobby in mastering them all.

[gsxrman]

Well I'm not going to say that's utter rubbish, because there's bound to be someone who does just that,
But those people who shoot HFT/FT tend to think that they're the be all & end all of airgun shooting...sorry chaps you aren't
I bet 90% of airgun shooters neither know, or particularly care who wins/won what with which rifle or scope, & even less give it any thought when buying.

.20 is a HUNTING calibre not a competition calibre.

Love it.
We aren't saying we are the be all and end all, but without said disciplines development does not move as fast.
90% of air gunners are members of a club, members of a forum, have friends who shoot, read magazines and frequent RFDs.
People talk, information is key. Air gunners are not the ignorant type you portray.
We all want the best, the most accurate or best at the job.
.22 was king for hunting as it developed more power until .177 was developed to be as powerful. That there changed the game.
I started as a hunter, am still a hunter, FT/HFT just made me better at it, like many others.

.20 is a HUNTING calibre only, yeah and .177 can only punch holes in paper!!!! Tell that to the thousands of critters .177 despatch's on a daily basis.
Again, any calibre can do the job hunting or FT, but as accuracy across varying ranges is key to it all, .177 is easiest to master.

Where does the definition farm yard range come from? Rats around the farmyard yes, squirrels are out in woods, rabbits in fields, rooks top of trees etc, all various ranges and angles.

[Muskett]

Sadly I'm guilty of thinking up the term farmyard ranges.
Because that is where air rifle hunting was done when I was growing up. Often done with open sights. Fleeting opportunity targets. Most farmyards had rabbits about and often a spinney or rookery attached.
For everywhere else shotguns were used and everyone had them. Youngsters had .410s. No one called the Police seeing a teenager with a gun in gardens, yards, in the woods, or field verges. Supervision?
Farmyards also had the farm cat and a terrier or two, so a solid hit was humane enough as anything hitting the ground was going to get crunched/eaten.

To me farmyard range just covers 5 to 25m. Most .22s of old were accurate enough to get a solid hit even with open sights. An early Airsporter or Webley MK3 in .22 were thought of as top rifles for vermin control. Anyone who has owned one will tell you they aren't a 25m plus rifle.

Oh how things have progressed. Expectations are brain shots, and any rifle worth its salt should keyhole group at 35m. Few rifles used to be able to do that. Many still can't. And why I still encourage people to stick to farmyard ranges until they build their skill and get their rifles well sorted. Beyond farmyard ranges is Advanced air rifle shooting, especially when hunting.

The fault with the term is not everyone knows what a farmyard is....

[Born Again]

Again, any calibre can do the job hunting or FT, but as accuracy across varying ranges is key to it all, .177 is easiest to master.

True, and proven many times. All my PCPs are .177, and my older springers, until recently I didn't own a .22 but as I seemed to be spending more time shooting rats in the polytunnel and less shooting squirrels in the woods a sweet shooting .22 springer was added, then another one, HW98 and HW80. If a .20 springer really can shoot as sweetly as a ,22 then there is a gap for it.

[Anothermiss]

Love it.
We aren't saying we are the be all and end all, but without said disciplines development does not move as fast.
90% of air gunners are members of a club, members of a forum, have friends who shoot, read magazines and frequent RFDs.
People talk, information is key. Air gunners are not the ignorant type you portray.
We all want the best, the most accurate or best at the job.
.22 was king for hunting as it developed more power until .177 was developed to be as powerful. That there changed the game.
I started as a hunter, am still a hunter, FT/HFT just made me better at it, like many others.

.20 is a HUNTING calibre only, yeah and .177 can only punch holes in paper!!!! Tell that to the thousands of critters .177 despatch's on a daily basis.
Again, any calibre can do the job hunting or FT, but as accuracy across varying ranges is key to it all, .177 is easiest to master.

Where does the definition farm yard range come from? Rats around the farmyard yes, squirrels are out in woods, rabbits in fields, rooks top of trees etc, all various ranges and angles.

I genuinely don't know any of my shooting friends who are or who have ever been members of an airgun club. I would say 90% of those that own air rifles AREN'T part of a club, if I'm honest.

But maybe the swing either way isn't so drastic as that.

[Rapidnick]

True, and proven many times. All my PCPs are .177, and my older springers, until recently I didn't own a .22 but as I seemed to be spending more time shooting rats in the polytunnel and less shooting squirrels in the woods a sweet shooting .22 springer was added, then another one, HW98 and HW80. If a .20 springer really can shoot as sweetly as a ,22 then there is a gap for it.

The rifles you own are very easy to work on and that includes changing barrels. With both the 98 and 80 all you have to do is change the barrel. I actually run my 80 as a .20 and my 98 as a .177 so converting the 80 would be my first choice. Give it a try-you may like it and if you don't then .20 barrels are usually pretty easy to sell. The main point is that you don't need to buy a complete gun to see whether .20 is for you or not.

[angrybear]

Love it.
We aren't saying we are the be all and end all, but without said disciplines development does not move as fast.
90% of air gunners are members of a club, members of a forum, have friends who shoot, read magazines and frequent RFDs.
People talk, information is key. Air gunners are not the ignorant type you portray.
We all want the best, the most accurate or best at the job.
.22 was king for hunting as it developed more power until .177 was developed to be as powerful. That there changed the game.
I started as a hunter, am still a hunter, FT/HFT just made me better at it, like many others.

.20 is a HUNTING calibre only, yeah and .177 can only punch holes in paper!!!! Tell that to the thousands of critters .177 despatch's on a daily basis.
Again, any calibre can do the job hunting or FT, but as accuracy across varying ranges is key to it all, .177 is easiest to master.

Where does the definition farm yard range come from? Rats around the farmyard yes, squirrels are out in woods, rabbits in fields, rooks top of trees etc, all various ranges and angles.

And that alone sums up why people prefer it, it's easiest to master where other calibres take a bit more effort/input.

Anothermiss, beat me to the other point.

[gsxrman]

I genuinely don't know any of my shooting friends who are or who have ever been members of an airgun club. I would say 90% of those that own air rifles AREN'T part of a club, if I'm honest.

But maybe the swing either way isn't so drastic as that.

I didn't say 90% of air gunners are club members, but implied that they are educated from either being a club member, forum member, talking to friends, reading magazines and RFD employees.
People will find the info they need to obtain the best kit for their goals with all disciplines or interests. Take the late great JD who wrote article after article shooting a Venom HW80, so every body wanted one .... then he switched to a Rapid and same thing happened again. Trend. We are subconsciously motivated. There fore if for instance Chris threw his Steyr in the bin, bought a Kral in .20 and won the HFT Worlds with it, sales of .20 Kral would go through the roof, due to the grapevine.

.177 is the easiest to master at varying ranges because it is the most suited overall to sub 12. A very slightly larger hole, a tad more energy, a more difficult calibre to learn consistently, having to reduce range etc does not make a calibre more rounded or better. It just doesn't.

[Anothermiss]

I didn't say 90% of air gunners are club members, but implied that they are educated from either being a club member, forum member, talking to friends, reading magazines and RFD employees.
People will find the info they need to obtain the best kit for their goals with all disciplines or interests. Take the late great JD who wrote article after article shooting a Venom HW80, so every body wanted one .... then he switched to a Rapid and same thing happened again. Trend. We are subconsciously motivated. There fore if for instance Chris threw his Steyr in the bin, bought a Kral in .20 and won the HFT Worlds with it, sales of .20 Kral would go through the roof, due to the grapevine.

.177 is the easiest to master at varying ranges because it is the most suited overall to sub 12. A very slightly larger hole, a tad more energy, a more difficult calibre to learn consistently, having to reduce range etc does not make a calibre more rounded or better. It just doesn't.

Sorry - I did misread the 90% thing.

My 20s were always more resistant to wind than my 177s and that's a real world advantage, at least it was for me.