The Lowest Ebb of Webley

[andrewM]

I agree with you Alistair. My first air rifle was the Hawk in 1971/2, just after if came out. Because it held the Webley name, gunsmiths were happy to sell it at a time when there was little penetration of foreign competition into the UK. The cost, if I recall, was around £13-14. It had a changeable barrel (like the Mk2) for a little extra. Today, the multiple is about 20 to reach today's prices, which would probably take it to £260-£280. It was poor quality. The power was weak and the spring shed power. A friend at school had a Webley Mk3 and so I traded mine in and bought a Mk3 a year later for, I think, around £29, with something knocked off for the Hawk. The Mk3 was far better but could not take a scope on the hopeless scope rail, which encouraged recoil creep. That did not worry me and I mastered the iron sights quickly. I was not yet in my teens but in those days, with parental oversight, we could buy air rifles.

I was astonished, later, to discover the Hawk had not been discontinued. With encroaching competition from the German players, the Webley management - one can only assume - was dead beat and asleep on the job. When it did act, it was reactive rather than pro-active. Eventually it got it right and then went under, but the Germans had more or less taken over the UK market by the 1980s, with limited competition from BSA and Webley. However, the Mk3 (in production for some 30 years), the Omega and the Longbow were good rifles and I am a happy owner of each of these.

What a great brand name to own and the new owners bought Webley for a song, it seems, and have continued to turn out cheap muck, missing an opportunity to nurture the name and restore production to the UK. Quite tragic.

[Geezer]

I can’t disagree with any of the above.

The Osprey, while lacking such obvious faults as the Hawk, was thoroughly uninspiring, especially as the successor to the Mk3.

While I don’t think there’s anything fundamentally wrong with them, for what they are, the Stinger BB pistol and the Nimrod (a small, indifferent, Chinese springer sold around 2002) were unworthy of the Webley name.

[Big Seth]

A friend had an Osprey and the welds failed on the trigger cage.
I had a mk2 Hawk with all of the aforementioned faults.
The steel did seem very good quality, the blueing was truly first rate and the interchangeable barrels was a novel feature but in operation the rifle was a heap of shite..
The Hawk mk3 was worse as the unique feature of the first two Hawks was the switchable calibre barrels.

[hmangphilly]

A friend had an Osprey and the welds failed on the trigger cage.
I had a mk2 Hawk with all of the aforementioned faults.
The steel did seem very good quality, the blueing was truly first rate and the interchangeable barrels was a novel feature but in operation the rifle was a heap of shite..
The Hawk mk3 was worse as the unique feature of the first two Hawks was the switchable calibre barrels.

Osprey needed a spring guide too .
spring snapping was not uncommon.

I've still got a soft spot for them though .Pretty guns.

[Hsing-ee]

Osprey needed a spring guide too .
spring snapping was not uncommon.

I've still got a soft spot for them though .Pretty guns.

They are a lovely looking rifle, with the slight pistol grip and that full-length bull barrel.
I saw somewhere they can be upgraded with a parachute seal piston from a Tracker and other tweaks to give proper power, and I suppose the tap can be shimmed to give better accuracy. I don’t know if anything can be done about the trigger other than put a shoe on it to reduce the felt pressure…

[coburn]

How many of those Hawks were purchased through a Mums Grattan Catalogue at so much a week, possibly costing more than an Original 27 purchased outright.

Don't forget for most people, air rifles were just for kids until 1977 when Airgun World came out.

[jorkie]

How many of those Hawks were purchased through a Mums Grattan Catalogue at so much a week, possibly costing more than an Original 27 purchased outright.

Don't forget for most people, air rifles were just for kids until 1977 when Airgun World came out.

Used to love looking at the sporting goods/hobbies pages of my mum's mail order catalogues. All those air rifles and pistols and you could even buy shotguns from there in those days. amazing!

[abellringer]

I was head service technician at that time, and the new managements decisions on cost cutting and quality caused me to leave. I was on the receiving end of the problems this management caused and I just gave up.
The Hawk I was introduced as a replacement for both the Falcon and MKIII. The interchangeable barrel was a carry over from the Service rifles, but that was about as good as it got.
A general dictat was to first remove locking screws [too costly]; then screws[too costly]; fit split or roll dowels '' they allow pivoting, and cost nothing compared to screws'' !!!!!
Replace leather washers ''too costly'' fit something synthetic it's cheaper. SEE THE THREAD ???
Oh don't cut blanks like that from the planks, if you turn the stencils round you can get 4 instead of 3. Question from us won't that weaken the pistol grip ?? answer maybe but it's still cheaper.
Use self tappers instead of drill and tap, yep it's cheaper. Problem was, the self tappers were too thin, so they broke, oh boy did they break !! as did the stocks. So no real savings.
Also poor machining meant the front stock screw holes were often not deep enough, so screws broke on ''the line''; first solution, machine a bit off the Jaguar lock nuts and pop them on the front stock screws. Poor welding on the trigger housing mmmmmm we'll need to look at that. Hawk MKI final solution thicken the pistol grip area, beef up the fore end, use next size up self tappers.
The HawkII continued in much the same vane, rear sight was better, beefier bits helped, but the trigger remained atrocious [ an alternative was designed by 2 of us, but rejected ''due to costs''. So the decline continued. The dislike for break barrel rifles often cropped up, so the Osprey was designed, sadly no attempt to increase power or add a better trigger. My involvement as a top level 10M shooter, constantly saw me pushing German technology to them but the reply was always the same. '' They're too expensive, they won't survive !! cheap and cheerful, that's the way to go. Same mindset applied to pistols.
When the MD says in meetings, ''you've missed the point !! a gun is some wood with some metal on top, you cock it, pull a lever and it goes pop !! So what's the problem ??
So there you have it, the demise of Webley from a gunmaker to a cost cutting engineering firm.

[evert]

I was head service technician at that time, and the new managements decisions on cost cutting and quality caused me to leave. I was on the receiving end of the problems this management caused and I just gave up.
The Hawk I was introduced as a replacement for both the Falcon and MKIII. The interchangeable barrel was a carry over from the Service rifles, but that was about as good as it got.
A general dictat was to first remove locking screws [too costly]; then screws[too costly]; fit split or roll dowels '' they allow pivoting, and cost nothing compared to screws'' !!!!!
Replace leather washers ''too costly'' fit something synthetic it's cheaper. SEE THE THREAD ???
Oh don't cut blanks like that from the planks, if you turn the stencils round you can get 4 instead of 3. Question from us won't that weaken the pistol grip ?? answer maybe but it's still cheaper.
Use self tappers instead of drill and tap, yep it's cheaper. Problem was, the self tappers were too thin, so they broke, oh boy did they break !! as did the stocks. So no real savings.
Also poor machining meant the front stock screw holes were often not deep enough, so screws broke on ''the line''; first solution, machine a bit off the Jaguar lock nuts and pop them on the front stock screws. Poor welding on the trigger housing mmmmmm we'll need to look at that. Hawk MKI final solution thicken the pistol grip area, beef up the fore end, use next size up self tappers.
The HawkII continued in much the same vane, rear sight was better, beefier bits helped, but the trigger remained atrocious [ an alternative was designed by 2 of us, but rejected ''due to costs''. So the decline continued. The dislike for break barrel rifles often cropped up, so the Osprey was designed, sadly no attempt to increase power or add a better trigger. My involvement as a top level 10M shooter, constantly saw me pushing German technology to them but the reply was always the same. '' They're too expensive, they won't survive !! cheap and cheerful, that's the way to go. Same mindset applied to pistols.
When the MD says in meetings, ''you've missed the point !! a gun is some wood with some metal on top, you cock it, pull a lever and it goes pop !! So what's the problem ??
So there you have it, the demise of Webley from a gunmaker to a cost cutting engineering firm.

Sad story, but nice to hear a first hand account of how it goes..

I'm curious to know why the transfer port was too large on the Osprey and Hawk, they got it right on the Tracker, why not on the Osprey?

[abellringer]

Sadly I've no idea of how designs came about, but the then design office only had a couple of ''decent'' designers, the head was a hydraulic engineer I believe with his flagship design being a smaller than usual car jack. !!?? It seems there's a pattern to oversize transfer ports, the MKIII had the same problem. I was just front line repairer, and service technician, with no involvement of design.

[Hsing-ee]

Sadly I've no idea of how designs came about, but the then design office only had a couple of ''decent'' designers, the head was a hydraulic engineer I believe with his flagship design being a smaller than usual car jack. !!?? It seems there's a pattern to oversize transfer ports, the MKIII had the same problem. I was just front line repairer, and service technician, with no involvement of design.

This is priceless intel on the mysteries of Webley.

Also I just bought a new car-jack which is BIGGER than my other two. It’s the best of the three although it’s heavy to lug around. Like an HW77.

Sounds like the engineer was resting on the prestige of his carjack and in terms of airguns was not capable of differentiating his arse from his elbow.

[ashf9999]

There’s nowt wrong with a Webley hydraulic jack!

[evert]

Sadly I've no idea of how designs came about, but the then design office only had a couple of ''decent'' designers, the head was a hydraulic engineer I believe with his flagship design being a smaller than usual car jack. !!?? It seems there's a pattern to oversize transfer ports, the MKIII had the same problem. I was just front line repairer, and service technician, with no involvement of design.

Thanks for the insight!
I guess the Osprey and the Hawk in some ways were victims of the time, when everybody were transitioning from leather to synthetic piston washers.
But BSA had the Meteor well set up with the O-ring and small volume port in the sixties.

[TonyL]

I was head service technician at that time, and the new managements decisions on cost cutting and quality caused me to leave. I was on the receiving end of the problems this management caused and I just gave up.
The Hawk I was introduced as a replacement for both the Falcon and MKIII. The interchangeable barrel was a carry over from the Service rifles, but that was about as good as it got.
A general dictat was to first remove locking screws [too costly]; then screws[too costly]; fit split or roll dowels '' they allow pivoting, and cost nothing compared to screws'' !!!!!
Replace leather washers ''too costly'' fit something synthetic it's cheaper. SEE THE THREAD ???
Oh don't cut blanks like that from the planks, if you turn the stencils round you can get 4 instead of 3. Question from us won't that weaken the pistol grip ?? answer maybe but it's still cheaper.
Use self tappers instead of drill and tap, yep it's cheaper. Problem was, the self tappers were too thin, so they broke, oh boy did they break !! as did the stocks. So no real savings.
Also poor machining meant the front stock screw holes were often not deep enough, so screws broke on ''the line''; first solution, machine a bit off the Jaguar lock nuts and pop them on the front stock screws. Poor welding on the trigger housing mmmmmm we'll need to look at that. Hawk MKI final solution thicken the pistol grip area, beef up the fore end, use next size up self tappers.
The HawkII continued in much the same vane, rear sight was better, beefier bits helped, but the trigger remained atrocious [ an alternative was designed by 2 of us, but rejected ''due to costs''. So the decline continued. The dislike for break barrel rifles often cropped up, so the Osprey was designed, sadly no attempt to increase power or add a better trigger. My involvement as a top level 10M shooter, constantly saw me pushing German technology to them but the reply was always the same. '' They're too expensive, they won't survive !! cheap and cheerful, that's the way to go. Same mindset applied to pistols.
When the MD says in meetings, ''you've missed the point !! a gun is some wood with some metal on top, you cock it, pull a lever and it goes pop !! So what's the problem ??
So there you have it, the demise of Webley from a gunmaker to a cost cutting engineering firm.

Just spotted this. Got to log off as I need to get ready for work. Will read properly later.

Wow!

[laverdabru]

Interesting input from abellringer, think he mentioned this a few years back in another thread on the Hawk. Good to hear it again, thank you.
I do have some later '70's Webley pistols, Hurris & a Tempest. Not up to the build quality of the all steel ones, but much better than the lamentable Hawk. Think my (probably 1977)early Hurricane has only been apart once since I bought it. I also find it more accurate than my older ones. Maybe the management had changed by then?
Do remember my brother & people at my club back then dismissing the Hurricanes as 'placcy Webleys' when they came out.