The Lowest Ebb of Webley

[greenwayjames]

Sadly I've no idea of how designs came about, but the then design office only had a couple of ''decent'' designers, the head was a hydraulic engineer I believe with his flagship design being a smaller than usual car jack. !!?? It seems there's a pattern to oversize transfer ports, the MKIII had the same problem. I was just front line repairer, and service technician, with no involvement of design.

Was that the time of the Technical Director, later MD, Harold Resuggan? He had his name on several W&S patents including the PTFE head of the Vulcan and could be opposed to others ideas I was told

[evert]

Was that the time of the Technical Director, later MD, Harold Resuggan? He had his name on several W&S patents including the PTFE head of the Vulcan and could be opposed to others ideas I was told

The PTFE washer/head/seal backed by a neoprene washer as used in bot the Vulcan and the Tracker, which both have smaller ports than their previous counterparts. The Tracker is basically an osprey with smaller port, new seal, better spring guide and heavier piston. So when that change was made, someone knew more about synthetic sealed rifles than what was done previously at webley.

[MartynB]

I had a mint Premier in the early 1980s, Mk1 possibly that was all machined and polished blued steel, it was a lovely pistol

[Muskett]

There were so many the issue is what one to choose from?

The MKIII was old school and expensive to make. It carried on because the tools and machining was already there and it was just the hand finishing to do.
Much of the rest is as much to do with both UK economics and the need to keep up with "progress", the changing markets. Webley was stuck in old buildings, with old machinery, and no money for any real investment. Taxes were so high that there was no money for investment. The management had probably lost interest anyhow.

Both BSA and Webley had piled them high and sold them cheap around the world to a captive market. Well, world trade had moved on, and domestic costs had gone through the roof. More competition and "UK cheap" was in truth very expensive. The sophistication of the air gun market had moved on too with the advent of cheap Jap rifle scopes that showed up how limiting most air rifles were; just not that accurate at longer ranges. Germany wasn't fairing much different as "old school" was failing as seen by the closure of BSF.

Put a scope on a Webley MKIII and see its full accuracy? They just don't do well compared to a fettled HW35E.

The Webley Vulcan MKI was new in many ways, and cheap. Sold well but made little profit.

BSA was in just as much trouble, with similar problems.

Early mid 1980s, Welbley was sold. New money brought the Omega and Eclipse. Sadly, not enough investment in the trigger and just too late. From then on the value was in the company name and been sold on a few times. I haven't kept up

Enfield, BSA, and Webley, were military and sporting gun manufacturers. Air rifle manufacture was always a sideline to the real business, to be done between the "important" "real gun" orders. They didn't win any "real. gun" orders, nor had the innovation or investment to do so. (HK, Glock, Beretta, have won orders. Heck, bought up other struggling companies too.)
I'm pretty amazed that there are any air rifle manufacturers in the UK. Support the ones we do have, or see them go like Theoben. The next few years are going to be really tough for them, and if they have any loans then going to be in trouble when the added taxes are added and high fuel costs. Its not just the UK, but Germany too...Italy? Most of these independent businesses are tiny, and don't need much of a push to topple.

[Hsing-ee]

Support the ones we do have, or see them go like Theoben. The next few years are going to be really tough for them, and if they have any loans then going to be in trouble when the added taxes are added and high fuel costs. Its not just the UK, but Germany too...Italy? Most of these independent businesses are tiny, and don't need much of a push to topple.

So are you saying that the BBS ought to open a sinking fund to purchase Air Arms when the Day of Doom comes?

And that the enthusiast-owned Air Arms will also buy the barrel-making machinery and staff from the also defunct BSA factory? (I know that it will be difficult to integrate the Brummies into the Sussexshire culture, but eventually this worked with Scots coalminers in Kent so it can be done.)

And that the only rifle they will make will be the Air Arms ProLite, the 12fpe smaller version of the ProElite for sale to UK customers and European countries with restricted power levels and to Americans who love the R7?


Is this what you are saying?













Because it sounds like COMMUNISM!

[Muskett]

I think I will put my hope in the US market.

I don't have any insight into UK rifle making business, nor their business plan. However, I do hope them well. They do produce some most lovely premium rifles.

High interest rates and high taxation can't be helping. This present government economic policy isn't helping anyone.

Maybe the BBS should do a poll of its membership and ask when members last bought a new UK rifle????? I, like so many here, buy second hand as that is where our interest lies. We are not the best supporters of "new" retail.

[Shed tuner]

Maybe the BBS should do a poll of its membership and ask when members last bought a new UK rifle????? I, like so many here, buy second hand as that is where our interest lies. We are not the best supporters of "new" retail.

A really interesting point. I have bought probably 250 airguns over the last 30 years... Except for a $40 crosman whilst I was in the states, the last (and only) gun I bought new was an HW80 in 1988 from JSR

[TonyL]

I was head service technician at that time, and the new managements decisions on cost cutting and quality caused me to leave. I was on the receiving end of the problems this management caused and I just gave up.
The Hawk I was introduced as a replacement for both the Falcon and MKIII. The interchangeable barrel was a carry over from the Service rifles, but that was about as good as it got.
A general dictat was to first remove locking screws [too costly]; then screws[too costly]; fit split or roll dowels '' they allow pivoting, and cost nothing compared to screws'' !!!!!
Replace leather washers ''too costly'' fit something synthetic it's cheaper. SEE THE THREAD ???
Oh don't cut blanks like that from the planks, if you turn the stencils round you can get 4 instead of 3. Question from us won't that weaken the pistol grip ?? answer maybe but it's still cheaper.
Use self tappers instead of drill and tap, yep it's cheaper. Problem was, the self tappers were too thin, so they broke, oh boy did they break !! as did the stocks. So no real savings.
Also poor machining meant the front stock screw holes were often not deep enough, so screws broke on ''the line''; first solution, machine a bit off the Jaguar lock nuts and pop them on the front stock screws. Poor welding on the trigger housing mmmmmm we'll need to look at that. Hawk MKI final solution thicken the pistol grip area, beef up the fore end, use next size up self tappers.
The HawkII continued in much the same vane, rear sight was better, beefier bits helped, but the trigger remained atrocious [ an alternative was designed by 2 of us, but rejected ''due to costs''. So the decline continued. The dislike for break barrel rifles often cropped up, so the Osprey was designed, sadly no attempt to increase power or add a better trigger. My involvement as a top level 10M shooter, constantly saw me pushing German technology to them but the reply was always the same. '' They're too expensive, they won't survive !! cheap and cheerful, that's the way to go. Same mindset applied to pistols.
When the MD says in meetings, ''you've missed the point !! a gun is some wood with some metal on top, you cock it, pull a lever and it goes pop !! So what's the problem ??
So there you have it, the demise of Webley from a gunmaker to a cost cutting engineering firm.

Oh dear, indeed. Very disappointing and upsetting. And must have been especially so for you and other good people involved.

[Muskett]

Webley, and BSA, did used to pile it high and sell cheaply. Air guns were for plinking....weren't they? Toys?

An Airsporter or Webley MKIII can hit anything in a farmyard with open sights and some skill. The rest of their ranges can hit tin cans. But the market moved on, and their plinkers were not cheap enough, heck getting quite expensive. For a little more consumers could get a "real" gun that could utilise a telescopic sight.

How many times did Webley and BSA change hands/ownership?

[Hsing-ee]

Maybe the BBS should do a poll of its membership and ask when members last bought a new UK rifle????? I, like so many here, buy second hand as that is where our interest lies. We are not the best supporters of "new" retail.

Pretty much guilty as charged.

However, by providing a voracious market for secondhand guns, primary owners can sell off their ‘disappointing’ purchases and get on and buy another new gun easily without making more than 1/3 loss. It’s like leasing for them and gravy for us. So often a new gun is advertised with like 50 pellets through it.

I’m sure this happens in the other adult toy markets like cameras, drones etc .. although probably not actual ‘adult toys’ as these probably don’t have a secondary market outside of certain niche subcultures.

[ashf9999]

The last new air rifles I’ve bought most recently are (latest first) FX DRS, 3 Weihrauch 125 anniversary editions, an SMK XS19 Custom (when PellPax had them for £60 about a year ago), but just but prior to that… a Prosport .177 Walnut, TX200 HC .22 Walnut, S510 .177 Walnut - when I had an AA blitz. All over the space of about 3 or 4 years.

So Johnny Foreigner just about takes that 5:3 for my most recent new guns.

(There was also a tuned .22 Prosport from off here after the other AAs, but being S/H that one doesn’t count).

[peddy]

I totally agree, the mk2 and mk3 were dreadful and dangerous guns. However I’ve owned a mk2 from new since I was 11! Over the years as my skills improved I’ve made the gun it should have been. Machined the piston to take a HW one, machined off the pathetic guide and had bespoke guides made. Sleeved the transfer port and discovered marksman 5.6 pellets. Mine now shoots spot on at just under 10fpe. I also chopped off the safety catch. Biggest problem was folk fitting strong springs that elongated the cylinder holes, mines always had original mainspring so no issues.

[junglie]

Not shot an omega or longbow but most of the 70's & 80'd webleys I tried left me very unimpressed, hawks, ospreys, trackers & vulcans all let down by bad triggers I felt, however the eclipse carbine I picked up cheap off a mate was very nice to shoot with a trigger so nice I didn't even bother adjusting it, never felt the need to look inside either it shot so well, sold it to a good mate who likes webleys & he still has it.

[Muskett]

It would be interesting to know who owned Webley over the years. Where the investment came for the Omega and Eclipse? Were they done all at the old factory, or how much? Is it in a book that I haven't bought??? Same could be said for BSA.

[TonyL]

Good posts up above, sir.