Clitorati
The standard of shooting was a lot better in the 80's.
There was no high powered sights and only spring powered rifles (until the late 80's when pcp started too appear).and they still cleared a course with a well tuned HW 77 and anything from a 4x40 to a 3-9x40 scope,the most popular was the tasco AG 2-7x32 AO with a duplex ret .
So it goes to show you don't need the high power scopes or the expensive pcp to compete .
Mushroom Man
A fascinating set of comments, thank you. Clearly some people are still at the top of their game, and that is very impressive but I do wonder what will happen as the years go by. I tend to think that everyone is on their own 'performance declining curve' but that the curve is different for different people. Many are acknowledging their decline and Herx 77 comments are particularly apt; I guess I am only a few months behind you in the age stakes.
I do not, however, think that the standard of shooting was better in the 80s. Yes, technology has improved but you have to take into account the fact that target and course specifications have also changed. I wonder how many people would not agree that a UKAHFT course is now more difficult due to smaller kill zones etc than it was 20 years ago? I do not know about FT. Harder courses with smaller kill zones and terrible but impressive use of 'range traps' could well be affecting the scores of older competitors as their eyesight begins to play tricks on them.
Grow old gracefully is clearly the thing to do.
Cheers, Phil
Zebedee
Originally Posted by transporter
Sorry, Ray. You're talking twaddle.I do not, however, think that the standard of shooting was better in the 80s. Yes, technology has improved but you have to take into account the fact that target and course specifications have also changed. I wonder how many people would not agree that a UKAHFT course is now more difficult due to smaller kill zones etc than it was 20 years ago? I do not know about FT. Harder courses with smaller kill zones and terrible but impressive use of 'range traps' could well be affecting the scores of older competitors as their eyesight begins to play tricks on them.
Grow old gracefully is clearly the thing to do.
Cheers, Phil
Yes, I must say, I was a better shot ears ago. That's easy for me to say. And they're just words and taken on trust. But I can't substantiate that claim. However, I KNOW I was a better shot back then as I had the opportunity to shoot and practice more often. Sometimes, these days, weeks can go by between sessions. And I mostly shoot seated now whereas, years ago, I practised from different positions. I am, however, as you know, a fan of The Boinger and low mag scopes.
I agree with Phil about the specifications of modern courses - distances, range traps, kill zone size etc.
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Clitorati
Ok ,your rightSorry, Ray. You're talking twaddle.
Yes, I must say, I was a better shot ears ago. That's easy for me to say. And they're just words and taken on trust. But I can't substantiate that claim. However, I KNOW I was a better shot back then as I had the opportunity to shoot and practice more often. Sometimes, these days, weeks can go by between sessions. And I mostly shoot seated now whereas, years ago, I practised from different positions. I am, however, as you know, a fan of The Boinger and low mag scopes.
I agree with Phil about the specifications of modern courses - distances, range traps, kill zone size etc.
Registered User
Loads of good comments.
Most shooting practices have changed which reflect the equipment being used and the progress in that equipment, all reflected in the targets and course of fire. A lot of equipment has been made to overcome the type of courses of fire encountered. Basically it's an arms race
Was marksmanship better in the 1970/80s? The answer is that it was as highly competitive and the courses of fire and equipment used were different.
In my teens I shot .22LR 25m at a County level. It was all about heart rate control.
In my 20s I shot Service rifle, firstly with iron sights (SLR) and later with optics (SA80/Susat). A load of handgun too. Service Rifle then age did matter, not only for eyesight but also straight forward fitness. Advance to contact. running between target encounters, and timed target exposures, with 50% of targets being from the standing positing, meant youth counted as much as experience. They made the targets smaller with the introduction of optics, but range/drop, wind, and light, all took experience to counter. The rest was how to control any huffing and puffing, in a pressure induced environment.
When targets get too small then heart rate matters. A lot of target shooting has reverted to small targets to make it all the more difficult, so heart rate is a big one; the rest is a steady position and correct let off. The pin point accuracy demanded is such that equipment has to be exceedingly precise too, and has given real progress in rifle accuracy; todays rifles are more accurate and consistent than yesteryear. However, a less accurate rifle means a perfect shot needs a bigger target, so as much is expected of the shooter as a more accurate rifle and smaller target. Basically to get a "possible" with either is just as hard. However, shoot too small a target with a rifle that doesn't match the size of target and scores will fall (Theory of the Group). Whatever, targets size they need to be achievable and not left to luck; a perfect shot will get a bull.
Do people want to shoot actively or passively styled shooting? Inactive pure target or physical more practical? Nothing physical, and no real time limits, favours the old, if they can do "stable".
One bug bear I have is Range Estimation. I just don't understand why have a scope system range finder when progress is lasers. Scope rangefinding takes yonks and a very dependent on equipment, plus getting familiar with it all in varying light conditions. Its still machine/equipment dependent. It is doable but outmoded. True skill would be no rangefinding aid bar no:1 eyeballs. But that can't work with the tiny targets that are presently being used.
Snipers range find with the use of optics, laser rangefinders, maps, and GPS. Hunters keep ranges short, are often familiar with their ground, and can use lasers.
Most target shooting is contrived. Made to suit a competition level playing field. I just say be careful that it doesn't lose its fun factor, or worse any real human input/skill.
Last edited by Muskett; 25-09-2022 at 04:08 PM.
Registered User
Courses and FT/HFT have to change rules to challenge the shooter and not the kit.
For instance a rifle like Air Arms 400 will produce half inch groups at 45 yards. People will pay thousands for a top rifle and scope to shave 1-2mm off that group size.
At the end of the day both kits are well capable of clearing a course at any level.
Its the shooter that needs challenging. Like I have said many times, there is a lot of people who can shoot pellet on pellet on practice range.
Put them on a course where they have to judge the range, the angle, the temperature and the wind and they miss a 40mm kill zone with rifle capable of 10mm groups.
ChrisC is one of the best HFT shooters out there, but HE makes the difference and not his kit. Age and eyesight are definitely factors though in shooting ability, and in many other disciplines.
Shooting, especially FT/HFT is an age friendly sport, it is not overly competitive i.e. shear numbers just aren't there, unlike Golf, Football or even Boxing/Martial arts.
Its great to hear people still enjoy this hobby/sport into their 80s, even if not at a high competitive level, just for pure enjoyment purposes. Keep going until you cant.
VAYA CON DIOS
Registered User
Don't get me wrong I think all shooting sports are fantastic. FT/HFT superb, as it is shooting at some most enjoyable targets. No reason it can't keep growing in the number of participants. All credit to those who organise and run clubs.
One of the great difficulties with shooting shorts is the business model and how to keep clubs financially viable. Insurance and the ground to shoot over let alone any staff. Much relies on good will and volunteers which isn't a bad thing, but that can only go so far.
Bums on seats, or shooters on the points, does count for every hobby sports. And how to get the scale to keep it all going? Like so many things, outdoor sports, they have to compete against TV/Sofa; and in all weathers.
Frankly, I can't understand how so many million are missing out on such great fun as shooting sports. FT/HFT are just so much fun. Sure tricky to start, but soon fast to show any application and effort put in. Unlike any computer game its real.
(Sadly I can't shoot FT/HFT as I have a compressed spine and the positions required would put it in spasm. Still doesn't stop me shooting, though often I pay for it later (ton of painkillers). I just can't do lengthy practice sessions.)
Dunkingdonuts
Well said and i'm sorry to hear that you struggle these days....getting old is a real turd.
I think there is still the apprehension from some shooters upon hearing the word 'competition'......if you heard the chat and banter, even at the worlds, then minds may be changed. I've always said that as soon as my shooting gets too serious and not fun...that's when i go back to fishing.
Chairman Emley Moor F.T.C. 2023 - Misfits champ, HFT extreme champ, NEFTA hunter champ, Midlands Hunter champ, UKAHFT champ.
https://sites.google.com/site/emleymoorftc/contact-us
Mushroom Man
I think you are right about 'apprehension', Chris
Many years ago I did a lot of cycling, mostly longish, fastish, solo runs. I thought I should try a 'club' so joined up and decided to go on a longish, maybe 80 mile, day run. One of the stipulations was that my cycle should have mudguards. The only cycle I had with guards was my old Raleigh Record Ace (or was it Road Ace?), a superb quality bike that was top of the range in its day. But it was not all bright and shiny. I turned up at the start, not knowing anyone. The place was full of shiny bikes and lycra clad posers. I could sense they looked at my bike and immediately put me in an unworthy category. Conversations could not be started; the organiser just said 'hello... wait over there', or some such remark. We set off and I teamed up with another chap on an older bike. We had great fun and were soon in front of everyone else. We came in first but were generally ignored as the lycra crowd talked to themselves. I never did go on another run with them but continued my solo, lycra clad, fast rides.
So it was when I went to my first HFT meeting that I was apprehensive. It could not have been more different from the cyclists. Club officials welcomed me, introductions to other members followed and I could not have felt more 'at home'. The day was superb and I continued to return.
Not sure of the point of this tale now ... but all I can say is 'try it. You won't regret it.'
Cheers, Phil
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